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How did the olmecs sculpture faces on that limestone without any metal tools ? i think they must have have had metal tools just because archeologist's have not found any that doesn't really mean anything, maybe they took them when they left and moved after the drought/famine !?

how did the mayans build the pyramids ? ive been thinking about this lately and i have drawn the conclusion that it can be done if you have 3 things in abundance.

1, belief in gods
2, manpower
3, time

who really knows how long it took some man to sculpture the stone into a head shape maybe it took 50 people working day and night over 10 years to complete it by using another type of rock to bang and shape the limestone...

the mayans are the descendent's of the olmecs,

actually it means a great deal when archeologists havnt found anything.

in not up on my olmec enough to know about the issue of their metal fabrication but i can tell you that whenever a culture produces an product the remains of the process are found strewn about. you cant do anything without making trash and there are always piles of it where ever people have been around doing anything year in and out.

the mayans are particularly interesting given the complexes they built were strictly religious. no commerce or other secular activity associated with at advanced society was ever included in their building complexes

from what ive read their unique in that and its an important concideration in understanding their collapse

so how did they do it?? carve the limestone and make huge pyramids without any evidence of metal tools ??

i read once ages ago that the south Americas and Egyptians auctaully knew of each other and not ony that they had cultural exchanges, i also read that in china in a tomb dating centuries ago they found tomato seeds so they believe that south americans civilizationals were trading with the chinese.

cultural anthropologists studying the 'evolution' of canoe and boat designs have brought a new light to the issue of the settlements of the pacific islands.
from their researches perspective, they believe asian sailors very quickly crossed the pacific eaast and worked their way back west building their settlements.

this insite virtually unites the two competting schools of though on the subject

have you every heard or read about the upper great lakes copper culture dill?


lots of yarns and stories about a 'lost civilization' there which mined alot of copper.
but for those 'stories' to be true, you have to dismiss all the evidence of who was there at the time and not be bothered that the lost civilization didnt leave any trash behind

it was the ancient aliens, or Gods, as they were known as back then.

no ben,i never heard of it, but am gonna google it and read up about it


i was watching some vids on documentaries.org and someone mentioned a certain plant in the amazon which when boiled down into a liquid can soften limestone and the amazonians passed this information onto the Egyptians,

the egyptian minister of antiquities Dr zaki once said that its all bullshit and the Egyptians used tools to carve away the limestone, and he is the worlds expert on Egyptology...

i think we humanoids have been around on earth a lot longer than conventional wisdom.... and somewhere along the road someone decided to get rid of all technology and we started from year dot again...

look at the Baghdad battery how old was that?? yet we didn't get street lighting in england until the Victorian ages ( gas lighting) ?? so how come the Baghdad battery didn't get more exposure and how come they dint take it to the next step and evolve the battery into something more powerful and brighter ?

its like someone built it and that was the end of that !!!

thats the thing though, if you want to mentally subdue masses of people you just confuse the fuck out of them on every level, and then they will just behave like sheeple...

who really knows who is actually telling the truth in the first place ? i mean you read a book on history and you tend to believe it, we put to much importance on the fact we think the author is always telling the truth, but thats just his interpretation of history he/she weren't actually there lol !!!

3800 years old i believe for that battery.
but it wasnt used for illumination off any sort. it was most likely used simple for artists to electroplate jewelry and other items.

there are egyptian hyroglyphs which show electric lights and alot off other advanced medical insterments and proceedures being done. heard alot of african doctors burts into tears when they see them and realize the history they were taught of these proceedures was wrong; that they had existed in egypt centuries earlier.

AND one of the cool things about the egyptian stones is they show all kinds of cuts and drills which could only have been accomplished using giant circular saws and tube saws the likes of which mining engineers say we couldnt build today. no idea how they did it

industry always leaves byproducts.

in sure theyre have been many lost civilization but they wernt doing things industrials.

the Iron pillar of Delhi is sure a wonder

Hey Dill ,

Lots of ancient technology got lost ... We always imagine that it takes lots of men power to move and build those huge monuments but it's not necessarily true . Did you ever heard about Wally Wallington ?

Wally Wallington is a retired construction worker from Lapeer County, Michigan who demonstrated a method for a person to construct a Stonehenge-like structure using only materials and techniques that do not rely on any modern technology. He has demonstrated this technique[1] on the Canadian science television program Daily Planet,[2] [3]and is building a full-scale concrete replica of Stonehenge single-handedly.

His technique uses simple machines such as levers aided by counterweights and pivots. He has successfully singlehandedly 'walked' a barn and multi-thousand pound concrete blocks using a beam lever and two pivots under the object and near the center of mass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Wallington" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



And his official website : http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... Fascinating stuff !

thanks mother penis, yeah i saw that few years ago and dint pay as much attention as just now when you linked it up.. what can i say !!! i am speechless.

i have been to stone henge a few years ago now its in salisbury planes, nice 5 hour drive from were i live, right opposite stone henge the ancients built "wood henge" once was for death and one for re-birth. i drove up there and got there at 8pm no-one else around felt natural for that to be there, they have barbed wire around it so you cant go and inspect it with detail. the standing stones dindt seem that big or overpowering, rays of light were streaking through the stone mainframe though that was a bit weird and ancient


ben

these are the olmec heads

ill see if i can find that vid on topdocumertaries.org.. this English guy is a professor and master stone mason really qualified and knows his stuff, but a bit of a buffoon, he tried to sculptre the limestone with another type of rock and within 10 mins was totally exhausted and the rock was barley scratched, but funny though at the end he just couldn't do it with rocks but he had a deadline of 10 days to carve that face no way he could have done that regardless. at the end he took out a modern hammer and the "punch" as i call it and guess what !! within a few minutes the punch was blunted by the rock. so he gave up an his conclusion was he had no idea how they did it.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=olmec+ ... SCA&zoom=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the conquistadors/missionaries really were cruel bastards, at the end they burnt everything that wasn't Christian enough.... the mayans had it all written down, stars, time, seasons.

It all goes back to serpent/snake and astro-theology worship, you look at most cultures pre- colombian and well beyond even back to the sumerian culture at one time they all worshiped the snake/serpent and the stars and star constellations.

the answer is time,
they did it with the methods which dont seem to work to us, given our different perceptions of whats to be accomplished in a day or a year or a career

cant find anything about it now,

but there is their relief map carved in stone in a museum in the former soviet union.
its like 11 feet on a side.

not only is it a perfect topographical representation of an asian mountain range

but its so correct that it incorperates the curvature of the earth into its dimension


and its several hundred years old

wasnt nearly as big as id recalled.

the dashka stone

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/the-dashka ... 22692.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-cb05L0 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks ben, now i have some reading to do on that stone

Erik Thorsby, an immunologist from the University of Oslo, found genetic markers in blood samples taken from Easter Islanders that he thinks could indicate contact with South Americans before the arrival of Europeans in the New World.


http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2 ... tml?ref=hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the demise of the Mayan's seems a simple case of Diminishing Returns,population became centered in cities,the food couldn't reach reach th citified folks in time because wheels hadn't been invented yet to speed their carts,if you believe they had been invented,the Bearings hadn't been invented yet.The mayans were so small as a race,that a small UFO could haul almost as many as a circus car can haul clowns.Mongolian blood markers show many similarities to Mayans.

just recently some experts have come to believe that Olmec is as old as 30,000 yrs.that could be why no iron tools were found,archeologists have diffilculty proving anything is older that 13,000 yrs. hmmm wonder why

a harvard educated Blackfeet Indian from montana will tell you that the tradition of the Blackfeet Sweat
Lodge goes back 30,000 years,so there spppghsppghfftt

so the giza pyramid was built from the inside out, by using a internal spiral ramp made out of wood which they bought in at a great expensive and was later moved to be re-cyled...

watched a youtube vid about it...

if you think we are the first civilization to reach the moon from this planet, your gravely mistaken. this is the problem people face today is the propaganda machine. the history books still say that columbus discovered america when most know this is bullshit. the copper miners mentioned were known as the "BEAKERS" after the type of copper instruments they produced and phoenician trading coins/tokens have been found in mexico and the usa. they were ship bourne traders from the "middle east".

im pretty sure the whales did it way back
before they figured out the best thing to do for themselves as specie
was give up their oposable thumbs

coral castle in Florida.. one guy quarried and moved huge coral stones on his own without any mechanical help !!?

heard of Göbekli Tepe in turkey?


12,000 year old complex on monoliths.
predates agriculture, which doesnt jive.

it was purposefully buried long before the pyramids or stonehenge were even built.

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeah ben

actually i have, well before the BIG FLOOD !!! when people were supposed to be just " hunter gatherers" they have only seen 5% of the gobekli tepe,

whats wild they say is that they havnt found a single tool so far.
the place was scrubbed and the backfill which was full of all kinds of animal and human bones and stonecarving chips didnt have a single tool in it.

speaks to a ritualistic burial of the side

i was reading that the Egyptians actually had IRON TOOLS which they got form the " Hittites" as they were established trade between them and the Egyptians and one of the main reasons why there is no evidence of this is because iron was more valuable than gold at that time and even a tiny piece of iron that broke off the main iron tool was picked up and taken away because it was so expensive, even when the foremans issued out copper chisels too workers they were weighed before they gave them to the workers, and once a week they were weighed again when the workers handed the chisels back to the foremans just to check if anyone dint break a piece of copper off and sold it himself..

bosnian pyramid said to be oldest in the world going back 20,000 years...

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/08/scientis ... the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how did he insert the metal spikes in the first place he never explained that .. did he use a drill so he could drive the spikes into the stone and then hammered them!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMcMGBh ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes,
you drill a hole, then you slip two pieces of metal [feathers] into the hole
then you drive a spike down between them


heres us doing it out in the woods to build stairs to a location for climbing


http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Three-Days- ... 1752n.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

was type of rock is it !?

oh no,
that was granite

i dont think limestone can be manipulated that way that way

i think the pyramids in Egypt were made of concrete and it set up so well they can't tell the difference except for the human hairs in the blocks.
they are trying make the concept of Slavery for the Pharoahs romantic.
It was Imperial Colonialism (Criminal Capitalism) that kept Europe in the dark and stoopid,yes different ancient cultures had batteries and hot air balloons,but how and the fuk to you account for Europe being in the dark medically ?? Muslim and Hindu medicine was so far advanced beyond Europe,well as went the USA Indians and Smallpox-Cholera , so went uppity 99% Europeans
who got too healthy on the Hemp gruel and tried to throw off their oppressor's.Kill Whitey,before they send for Norsemen and Roman's, and Hessians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFBAnpj ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


one of my hikes takes me past a boulder that got a line of these still hammered into it
they didnt finish the work

and i wonder
how many years ago it was
that nobody came back to work

hey ben..

seems like a lot of hard work drilling the holes even with the drill...

i seen some of the holes that were drilled at the "puma punku " site in Bolivia and they looked like machine drilled holes and some of the holes were drilled at awkward angles ... its like they did it with so much ease....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT6k2NY5 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

anu: ive heard of the "liquid stone" theory a few times on the net, but in the Egyptian quarries you can still see some blocks of granite that were half finished in the bed rock, and actually the Egyptians mostly wore wigs they had there hair shaved off for health reasons even the women, so finding human hair in the blocks is a new one to me

no stranger to hard work here!

i was bred to be a slave,
trained accordingly

ive drilled those holes by hand before,
each one could take two men a days labor

lots of evidence in eqypt for the use of tube drills and giant circular saws in the manipulation of those blocks

not to mention the use of ecentric lathes in the manufacture of stone bowls

tube drills
cut rates unmatchable today

baalbeck,temple of Jupiter...

thats huge, how did they lift it in place ??, look how small the guy looks....

great picture!
ive seen it somewhere before,

some people think it was accomplished using kites ganged together...
some guy lifted a 3 ton oblisque out in the desert here years ago to prove the technique


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... _the_world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... elisk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will summarize this quickly instead of doing a long winding dissertation on life and the universe and things.

First the aliens came and gave us this for practice.

This first known attempt at pyramid building failed horribly when it collasped because the ground was to soft.

The second historically known attempt failed because they tried to go up to steep... oops shorten the top and lets get home for the hops and roasted potatoes.

Those so far fetching advanced stupid aliens were so dumb at how to build pyramids. It took man a couple centuries to overcome the stupidity they were taught and finally do a Giza.

Take that you Alien Motherlords!

Your lucky we don't have interplanetary travel or we kick your asses.

Practice makes perfect Buds

Practice makes perfect

and life is never perfect

my Buddha loving brother might disagree

thanks ben....

why didnt they make a vid when they lifted the stone with kites!!

Now regarding the burning of children in hot basting ovens in sacrifice to gods>

um ok lets hold that of for ONE who may have more knowledge in those legal matters.

ok lets just throw all the shit on the fire now.

Ok ceremony 1 begins.. Alll the people are screaming and the holy priests are dancing and calling for the ex virginal sacrifice since all the high priest had sex with the virgin sacrifice

lets make this so exciting.. we need fire.. and smoke and colored smoke

excite the people..

remember kids we did not always have the internet and tv.

colored smoke signals were like wow man.. latest thing

Then one time while some funny smelling rocks accidentally found their way into the dancing fire and the virgin sacrifice bursts into flames and runs screaming around.

The whole Aztec clan suddenly went quiet.

Then begins clapping.

Then first know recorded entertainment venue occurs.

Money begins

wait whats that .. thing over there power
money and power

prestige

anything else?

lots of sex with naked women

fast car

sorry I hate caviar

Win at pool

Rod Sterling what is this revocation?

We have to burn more people to keep the peoples entertained.

Snaps fingers

go to it.

Mastiffs journey out.

dill786 wrote:

why didnt they make a vid when they lifted the stone with kites!!

im sure they did.
heres a short clip


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6fVVUzRup8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wow !!!

i would have never believed it...

I wish the Mayans were right and we all get wiped off this dimension. We;re too damn stupid and mean to go forward here.

that discounts how quickly minds can change

WE will never be wiped out
our culture will be

the process may in fact mean a staggering die back


i do hope youve buried your time capsule

this is in baalbeck too, this monolith is called the " stone of the pregnant woman" This huge 1000-2000 ton stone is reportedly the largest cut stone in the world.

i wonder what types of tools these guys used.....


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... erlin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't know, but I want one!

Looks like the work of a big core drill.
http://www.coredrilling-concretecutting ... ling4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I'm going to have to hire a 5" one to cut a ventilation hole in the wall of my growroom... it's getting a bit chilly to have the outlet poked out of an open window.

heh,
you cant silence a phenumatic tool...

its was a simple drill running a large diameter core bit...
when we hire this job out the guy drills several holes in the wall first to anchor his tool first.

you have to run a stream of water on it the whole time and you vacuum up the slurry thats created or you go to prison after the epa monitors find that stuff washed down the drain

each of those 4 cut would take about 10 minutes

noticed they took time to hammer down the rough edges inbetween the cuts where they lapped?

yeah i did.. i guess they were real professional about it all.....

that should read 20 minutes per cut, core

lapping cuts like that significantly increases the chance that the drill with throw its cutting teeth

horizontal cuttings raises issues and difficulties second only to overhead

a better look at the hardware

in the 3rd pic.. that drill core is frigging huge !!

.

They used rocks harder than limestone to hammer them into whatever shape they wanted.

Hmm, you cant even get a cigarette paper in between the joints, so how did they manage to do precise cutting using rocks ?

the pumapunku site in bolivia , i read somewhere that they used plant extract to soften and shape the stones, but it doesn't explain the precise drill holes that they made.......

our fast changing technology inhibits us to use it as such

those guys used ancient handcraft for hundreds and thousands of years and by that they mastered it


think of any "new-age-technology" that has been used for hundreds of years ... nothing ... even metal will fail, i cant count how many times i cut myself with a silex (stone-knife), but i can count how often that happen to me with a metal knife, stone is just superior in that regard ... dumb thing is u need to dig for it, as the knowledge of stone tech has also become long forgotten

with other words, in some hundred years .. todays technology .. will come to an equivalent , to what these ancient technologies seem to us today

just because we have miracle smart phones and acceess to enormous knowledge doesnt makes us smarter than those old folks, that is and was always my conclusion at any excavation ive been (professionally)

our technology will never last to mature another hundred years
were gonna die back faster than your head can spin

i get that we have no appreciation of doing jobs and tasks that our grandparents started and our grandkids might just finish, but still...

look at the stone work at tiahuanaco

thats machining... not hammer stones


you can melt limestone to a certain degree, but you cant pour it into forms. and the leading examples of unbelievable ancient stonework is in the hardest of granites

i get that the egyptians had giant tube drills and lathes and circular saws 30 feet in diameter sawing blocks up

but whoever did that work in south america had the equivelant of diamond plunge routers
which didnt leave markings behind which all our stuff today does

i read the bore drillings found in eqyptian stuff show feed rates on their drills that would be impossible with todays best tools

clearly we dont have much of any idea what they were actually using

wild

here is a vid on pumapunku. nice vid showing the carved stones..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT6k2NY5Riw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at 8 mins, they test the stone with a laser cut, a saw cut and the ancient cut, that was interesting !!!


weird thing is pumapunku is built on a high altitude were there is less air and no trees grow, so they manage to carve them and move them with out wooden wheels, well they dint have wheels did they 17,000 years ago.. lol

.

they had wheels 19.000 years ago

matalurgy / mining is already 7000 years old ... and imho its a much bigger step to mining than from wood to wheel, so without proof its just pure logic that it was around some 10000 years before mining

issues are when traveling past in terms of proofs that the further you go back, the more it costs and the less you are about to find


culture of homo sapiens , which overtook neandertals, was famous for their art ... and "folks" who are artful surly know how to make a wheel

lack of proof doesnt means it wasnt there

wheel, History






The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon—four wheels, two axles), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500–3350 BC clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.[4]

The wheeled vehicle spread from the area of its first occurrence (Mesopotamia, Caucasus, Balkans, Central Europe) across Eurasia, reaching the Indus Valley by the 3rd millennium BC. During the 2nd millennium BC, the spoke-wheeled chariot spread at an increased pace, reaching both China and Scandinavia by 1200 BC.

In China, the wheel was certainly present with the adoption of the chariot in ca. 1200 BC,[5] although Barbieri-Low[6] argues for earlier Chinese wheeled vehicles, circa 2000 BC.

Although they did not develop the wheel proper, the Olmec and certain other western hemisphere cultures seem to have approached it, as wheel-like worked stones have been found on objects identified as children's toys dating to about 1500 BC.[7] It is thought that the primary obstacle to large-scale development of the wheel in the Western hemisphere was the absence of domesticated large animals which could be used to pull wheeled carriages. The closest relative of cattle present in Americas in pre-Columbian times, the American Bison, is difficult to domesticate and was never domesticated by Native Americans; several horse species existed until about 12,000 years ago, but ultimately went extinct.[8] The only large animal that was domesticated in the Western hemisphere, the llama, did not spread far beyond the Andes by the time of the arrival of Columbus.

Nubians from after about 400 B.C. used wheels for spinning pottery and as water wheels.[9][10] It is thought that Nubian waterwheels may have been ox-driven[11] It is also known that Nubians used horse-driven chariots imported from Egypt.[12]

The invention of the wheel thus falls in the late Neolithic, and may be seen in conjunction with other technological advances that gave rise to the early Bronze Age. Note that this implies the passage of several wheel-less millennia even after the invention of agriculture and of pottery:
9500–6500 BC: Aceramic Neolithic
6500–4500 BC: Ceramic Neolithic (Halafian), earliest wooden wheels (disks with a hole for the axle)
Ca. 4500 BC: invention of the potter's wheel, beginning of the Chalcolithic (Ubaid period)
4500–3300 BC: Chalcolithic, earliest wheeled vehicles, domestication of the horse
3300–2200 BC: Early Bronze Age
2200–1550 BC: Middle Bronze Age, invention of the spoked wheel and the chariot

Wide usage of the wheel was probably delayed because smooth roads were needed for wheels to be effective. Carrying goods on the back would have been the preferred method of transportation over surfaces that contained many obstacles. The lack of developed roads prevented wide adoption of the wheel for transportation until well into the 20th century in less developed areas.

Early wheels were simple wooden disks with a hole for the axle. Because of the structure of wood, a horizontal slice of a tree trunk is not suitable, as it does not have the structural strength to support weight without collapsing; rounded pieces of longitudinal boards are required.

The spoked wheel was invented more recently, and allowed the construction of lighter and swifter vehicles. In the Harappan civilization of the Indus Valley and Northwestern India, we find toy-cart wheels made of clay with lines which have been interpreted as spokes painted or in relief,[13] and a symbol interpreted as a spoked wheel in the script of the seals,[14] already in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC. The earliest known examples of wooden spoked wheels are in the context of the Andronovo culture, dating to ca 2000 BC. Soon after this, horse cultures of the Caucasus region used horse-drawn spoked-wheel war chariots for the greater part of three centuries. They moved deep into the Greek peninsula where they joined with the existing Mediterranean peoples to give rise, eventually, to classical Greece after the breaking of Minoan dominance and consolidations led by pre-classical Sparta and Athens. Celtic chariots introduced an iron rim around the wheel in the 1st millennium BC. The spoked wheel was in continued use without major modification until the 1870s, when wire wheels and pneumatic tires were invented.[15]

The invention of the wheel has also been important for technology in general, important applications including the water wheel, the cogwheel (see also antikythera mechanism), the spinning wheel, and the astrolabe or torquetum. More modern descendants of the wheel include the propeller, the jet engine, the flywheel (gyroscope) and the turbine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seems you like wiki, eh ?

tho, that wheel chapter is bullshit ... a typical wiki hoax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^^ look at the bolas , goes back in time by the factor of 10 .. yep 30000 before jesus ...

what else do we find :

"During the Upper Paleolithic, further inventions were made, such as the net (c. 22,000 or 29,000 BP)[28] bolas,[38] the spear thrower (c.30,000 BP), the bow and arrow (c. 25,000 or 30,000 BP)[2][39] and the oldest example of ceramic art, the Venus of Dolní Věstonice (c. 29,000–25,000 BCE).[2] Early dogs were domesticated, sometime between 30,000 BP and 14,000 BP, presumably to aid in hunting.[40] However, the earliest instances of successful domestication of dogs may be much more ancient than this. Evidence from canine DNA collected by Robert K. Wayne suggests that dogs may have been first domesticated in the late Middle Paleolithic around 100,000 BP or perhaps even earlier."

so, they did know how to make nets, bolas ( a 3d wheel ) dogs were already domesticated, growing was in full effect ...

i tell you something, wheels are much older than just those inventions


btw, you wont find good archeological sources online as most is still oldschool written in the form of books


just realize that those middle american cultures are young, very young in terms of archeology, and everything they did or had, was already well established around the globe long before their time, sure its amazing bc of their art form, but on the other hand ... there are so many other art forms that you can find, which are even older ...

we just arent that smart like they were lol

deran wrote:seems you like wiki, eh ?



just realize that those middle american cultures are young, very young in terms of archeology, and everything they did or had, was already well established around the globe long before their time, sure its amazing bc of their art form, but on the other hand ... there are so many other art forms that you can find, which are even older ...

we just arent that smart like they were lol

well remember archeology was more of a Victorian past time if anything, before the Victorians there was nought in the form of professional archaeologists.

some of my favorite archeology books are from the 60's
and its interesting to cross check them against recent material. im suprised how often a dead end hasnt been cleared up in 40 years. take the minoans type 2 writting

we now have evidence of the industrial production of heat treated stones for flitnapping going back 65,000 years. so the date for humanoids using fire for other than warmth and food has been pushed back 30,000 years further than pottery. the previously earliest known use of fire other than.

wiki is good to at least get your feet wet.

but i just dont believe if humans had been using the wheel, they wouldnt have left evidence.

not one painting of a wheelbarrel?!?!?!?!

i think its rapid proliferation speaks to its incredible usefulness which would have left alot more relics around to find.

unless it was a secret only the religious leaders were allowed


bolo's are very cool

country boy, when you have some spare time you should check these vids out about the olmecs,,, some English guys try to move a rock that is 10 or 20 tonnes from A to B and the other English guy is a sculpture expert, he will try to carve the face on the rock by using rock tools.. its a bit of a farce really they have 10 days to do it, still an interesting watch..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpAdEmR2PW4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jsut curious deran,
do you discount that the western hemisphere was the last of the continents to be inhabitted by humans?

modern science tells it that the whole was settled north to south in less than the last 15 thousand


i dont at all discount that people from the west and east came to the america's by ocean in the last several thousand years and introduced more modern social structures but, original inhabitation was less than 20k and all from the north asian land bridge

dna mapping tells us that the whole world was colonized / civillized long before than archeological / physical evidence of it, for example the last ice age helped travell across the continents whitout ships

also its a problem of evidence regarding the wheels, as im sure 1st wheels were made of wood, you need special circumstance that wood survives thousands and thousands of years, contrary to clay which preserves easy in an oxygen rich medium, wood has to be covered by water, with no exposure to oxygen

my best guess is we should more emphase the dna structures than physical evidence, as its really hard to discover, and we find independantly on all continents homo sapiens "predecessors", tho the oldest ones are in africa .. it all began in africa ...

.

the number i was using do come from the dna mapping thats being done.

its unfortunate that route was so far north, glaciation and sea level rise has really scrubbed the physical evidence away. im really excited to see what they find on that underwater ridge that runs through lake hudson. underwater archeology techniques are really starting to amount to something more than pot hunting

dont think weve found a scrap of a non homo sapien in the america's although there is evidence of humanoid activity at a couple of rock shelters in both north and south america that seem to indicate habitation long before homo sapien got here.

great website this, with nice big pics...

in search of the ancient builders in peru and bolivia


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthr ... nd-Bolivia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deran-do you subscribe the the fertile crescent theory of agriculture and animal husbandry?
Or do you think it happened earlier but there's no record of it?
Where/when did it show in Africa?

my best guess it happend earlier ... without real hard proof of it

why? .. simply .. all of us had trown out seeds through our windows from seeded buds, just to find young plants next spring .. it just takes 1 year for that aha effect hehe

same goes with animals, a prehistoric beeing had the best "telly" show on earth called life, no distraction, no brain washings, no school institutions .. lots of time observing and thinking and working and trying out

oldest bones date back to 160000 in ethopia, which are clearly identified as homo sapiens

now a small run to down under .. takes only 100000 years and find those amazing rock drawings

from africa to australia its about the same distance as to northern or southern america (dont take same distance too literally), so it would be more than unusal that those continents werent "colonized" its just against my logic, as ben said it .. its just a matter of time and money to find better evidence of it

a book which is about the non - knowledge of archeology would be thousand times bigger than all known facts we have to day, so we have just one excuse called "myth" or called "ritual" artifact, until than we have such great conversations and share our thoughts about the past


cool thread

http://davidpratt.info/andes2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

v35,ooo year old footprints in mexico?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4650307.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks ben,

the pics from the first link are just madness... i am not sure about the liquid stone theory though... really impressive stuff man,

i think the melting or rock far fetched as well but this give the background of the claims which is worth reading

this pic from your link shows how astounding some of the work is.

.

bentech wrote:i think the melting or rock far fetched as well but this give the background of the claims which is worth reading

this pic from your link shows how astounding some of the work is.

its like they actively went out of there way to do the most difficult thing, anything easy would not do,

Fig. 6.A3 Note the tiny stone the size of a thumbnail (the area has become blackened by being touched so much). The stone maintains its trapezoidal shape all the way through the 2-foot-thick outer wall.

did you notice the oldest brick work was the finest, these people were building on older buildings but there work was quite shoddy compared to the build work of there ancestors..

exactly!

dill786 wrote:
Fig. 6.A3 Note the tiny stone the size of a thumbnail (the area has become blackened by being touched so much). The stone maintains its trapezoidal shape all the way through the 2-foot-thick outer wall.

i missed this before, but theres your proof against hammering.

you couldnt possibly shaped a square edged rod of stone of that dimension without breaking it.

impossible

i wonder if any modern experienced mason has tried to using rock tools to replicate what the incas did !!!

these rocks



to create this shape, smooth as you like , with perfect right angles...

i guess they could have roughly carved it with rocks and then used sand mixed with quartz and sanded it down, to create the perfect right angles .....

.

i think it was the "gods" the incas were trying to please, it kinda makes sense doesn't it, you do the impossible and the hardest thing imaginable just to show your love and devotion for the "gods" this way the gods will be pleased and the harvest ( corn/wheat will be bountiful.. and if the harvest isn't much then THEY will have to work HARDER to impress the GODS with even more virtually impossible buildings and carvings.....

anything we as society pursue today
will be ascribed to be the worship of a god in the future.

the people who did this work simple showed up for the jobs that were paying a living at the time

.

recently had a run in with a social service type
wasnt happy with me

told me how full of myself i was...
heh

like i didnt know



fyi

years ago,
i printed out several dozen threads
on acid free paper
then i stacked em in between
pages and pages of blank

then i hid them up in the mountains
in holes i dug wich would always drain water

congrats yall!
your going to be famous

dill786 wrote:so how did they do it?? carve the limestone and make huge pyramids without any evidence of metal tools ??

Aliens & their technology helped build the pyramids, Stonehenge, & most importantly, some other stuff.

How did civilization go thousands & thousands of years with: animals = food & transportation...fire = heat & light. Then within a mere, what, 150-200 yrs tops? We go from that to what we have now. Hell, I remember back in the 1970s,, heating up my Stouffer's Lasagne in a pre-heated oven of 425 & cook for 55 minutes...almost an hour for what takes 6 minutes in the microwave. There weren't microwave ovens a little less than 40 yrs ago!!
The governments are letting all these 'ideas' slip out a little at a time, imho. There's probably already a cure for a lot of diseases, but the AMA & the feds make too much $$$ treating people. I don't trust them in the slightest.

strikes me as racist to go with the alien angle

as its predicated on the belief that these brown people couldnt have possible did
what we have evidence they did

.

.

i recall reading about a finding of old bodies mexico that appeared to have been killed together,
but that detail arent familiar; have there been other such cases?

that mount verde site is amazing. if those people had left a wheel behind it would be been preserved there.

course i guess if they had to split, a wheel would have been valuable for the move

The Anti-Gravity Secret of Coral Castle
Coral Castle, an impressive stone structure built by Edward Leedskalnin, south of Miami in Florida. Not surprisingly, Coral Castle has continued to mystify modern scientists as to the method used in its construction.

.

i wonder what the pre-clovis people made of the Americas, bisons roaming on lush savannas,

country boy wrote: Earl-i 1st recall the 'mysterious' Coral Castle on Leonard Nimoy's 'In Search of'...' series.
Ya know-the 1 with, 'are these landing strips of ancient aliens?' kinda stuff...
...

Uh...yeah. That was my point (I think). This thread has several posts posit such "so amazing that early humans couldn't possible do THAT!" I was pointing out that 1 little guy has done all those "amazing" things with large scale stonework--and had no huge workforce, no hundreds of years to do it, and I seriously doubt he, or his "workers," were "ancient aliens." Several people prove and show such large scale work can easily be done--if you KNOW HOW. The vid was an attempt to infer this without such a long post as writing is not an easy thing for me. Sometimes, you'll have to look a little deeper into me meanings. Sorry that you already have an understanding of Ed;s work from Spock rather than that little documentary--I had hoped maybe others were more interested and would find some use of it.

Carry on, Earthlings!

dill786 wrote:i wonder what the pre-clovis people made of the Americas, bisons roaming on lush savannas,

I wish I could wonder of such a site--but Capitalism/Consumerism has fucked any chance of it. Hell, the Native Americans are lucky to have survived our onslaught.

Anyway...Carry on!

if you study flit napping,
the art of chipping stones into tools

you learn to read the fingerprints of differnt peoples and cultures doing the work
in how they went about the process of reducing the core you start with into the tool you want

you can actually see and count the blows and strikes,
how the napper choose to go about the process

each culture had its own methods which developed partially in response to the differnt
workability characteristics of the rock available that would work

the pre clovis tools found up and down the east coast of the america's clearly shows they were using the same styles and methods as the people living in france and spain whos work is well established going back at least 25 thousand years

the lack of dan evidence of these groups in the modern americans indicates that they went extinct
didnt survive into merging with those who came across from asia who formed the clovis culture

remember,
the notion that clovis was first is simply a hypothesis that isnt proven

for 70 years researchers simple took it on faith and never dug deeper than the layers of the clovis period

its been the return to these sites to dig much deeper than has revealed this much more ancient groupings use of the same sites and features



although the idea that aliens were responsible for these ancient wonders is insteresting and somewhat compelling
im amongst those who see this simply an explaination which appeals to a deep seated racism which the modern world
feels towards others from the past


to this day,
no other hominids remains have been found in the americans,
only homo sapien

australopithecines made it all the way to indonesia,
but didnt make it to europe
neanderthal and Homo heidelbergensis did

Earl wrote:The Anti-Gravity Secret of Coral Castle
Coral Castle, an impressive stone structure built by Edward Leedskalnin, south of Miami in Florida. Not surprisingly, Coral Castle has continued to mystify modern scientists as to the method used in its construction.

thanks for the vid earl,


ed knew about weights,leverage,pulleys, etc. but he still used basic metal tools he bought from the scrapyard, either way really impressive even though he was suffering from TB. Thing is i have no issues in ed doing all this on his own, but HOW did he do it. Thats the number one question.

dill786 wrote:...
ed knew about weights,leverage,pulleys, etc. but he still used basic metal tools he bought from the scrapyard, either way really impressive even though he was suffering from TB. Thing is i have no issues in ed doing all this on his own, but HOW did he do it. Thats the number one question.

Simple if you KNOW HOW. This is ONE man--multiply it to a workforce--then mutily it over hundred generations. You can begin to see how.


With time and perseverance, master stoneworkers can do anything--probably easier than working metals. Blocks are rough shaped then "sandpaper"it to fine edge. Their "rough" cuts were better than anything we do--because we don't do it. Those people didn't spend all day playing video games and texting each other all day--they were most probably on a "mission from god." They worked day in and day out and were generations of master knowledge we just don't think of in their time scale. 100's of years--1000s of years--to work on projects. Think of it.

maybe thats why we have these secret societies like the " free masons" they knew stuff we still dont.

.

country boy wrote:...
Yeah-Ed did it mostly by himself. no aliens or 'mysterious' power sources.
did you listen to the voice over in the link, earl?
It contends that he used 'anit-gravity' to lift the stones into place.
Was that the 'deeper meaning' we're supposed to be looking for?
...

Oops! That shit is in fact in that vid. I don't think Ed's electro-magnetic theory had anything to do with the structures--in my mind--and I overlooked it. Sorry. I was focused on the reality of the structures that, apparently, he built without help from anyone else. I apology to ya'll about that.

The 'deeper meaning' is only to say I many times post vids and pics with no or little writing. As I said, hard for me to write (but I can when I need to--just takes time and effort). I leave it for the reader to "get it" or not.

YouTube has several "how to" vids on flint napping. I ran across them just about a month ago. I didn't know anything about "flint napping" until I searched "napping" one day. Surprised to see it pop up in a post in MPG all of a sudden!! Funny.

didnt know about his weird tool or moving the site OR his book,

no wonder there a legend
this guy was a kook

this video rules!
best video clips and photos of the sites so far

the andean anomoly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edggRfClLn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:this video rules!
best video clips and photos of the sites so far

the andean anomoly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edggRfClLn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He said "titicaca!!"

Carry on!

sorry i know this might be the wrong thread, its along similar lines..........


really amazing story....... people can survive in really extreme places....

For 40 Years, This Russian Family Was Cut Off From All Human Contact, Unaware of World War II

Famine was an ever-present danger in these circumstances, and in 1961 it snowed in June. The hard frost killed everything growing in their garden, and by spring the family had been reduced to eating shoes and bark. Akulina chose to see her children fed, and that year she died of starvation. The rest of the family were saved by what they regarded as a miracle: a single grain of rye sprouted in their pea patch. The Lykovs put up a fence around the shoot and guarded it zealously night and day to keep off mice and squirrels. At harvest time, the solitary spike yielded 18 grains, and from this they painstakingly rebuilt their rye crop.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-a ... 43001.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:didnt know about his weird tool or moving the site OR his book,

no wonder there a legend
this guy was a kook

i think the answers lie in latvia, Ed was a mason there in the beginning and then he went to canada....

funny thing is when ED died his nephew inherited coral castle.. i am wondering didn't anyone bother to ask him " hey any ideas how your uncle did all this"

its gone!!!!

Earl wrote:

bentech wrote:this video rules!
best video clips and photos of the sites so far

the andean anomoly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edggRfClLn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He said "titicaca!!"

Carry on!

those videos are doing a phenominal job of illistrating and explaining the different layers of history these rock works represent.

the inca built on top of what a previous civilization had built on top of what another previous on had.

the the sculptures and carvings and best square block works were the oldest.
the odd shapped blocks of exceptional fit were the next,

and the inca built all over the remains of these two.

.

^you may be right about the smithsonian.....


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthr ... mithsonian" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Ancient American Stone & Mound Builders

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_FSmvBgHUc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

scientists who study erosion say that when the inspect the walls of the pit the sphinx is built in,
it shows that the construction is 5 thousand years older at least, that what archeologists believe

so its suggested that the ancient egyptians civilization grew up around artifacts which existed long before they stopped hunter gathering

as if they moved into the pyramids; didnt build them.

the lines between different civilizations in south america where in inca were the last are quite clear and obvious

id like to see the work of anyone who can show such regarding egypt

^ I read that to about the sphinx, it was water erosion, not a flood, but constant rain, they judged that by the way walls were shaped by the rainfall.

most folks dont realize it about rocks, but they [ aside from lava rocks ] are just dying to burst apart!

they were formed at great depths and pressures,
and being forced up to the surface

their like a marshmallow in a vacuum chamber

expanding
throwing off bit and pieces as fast as they can

its just that this process while geologically screaming along
is to close for humans to appreciate with their imediate senses

the rain really helps to!

.

ya, i knew that, that they wrote it all down...
but i know that the appropriate of the past has always been a big highlight of imperial power
lots of inscriptions and hyroglypics were destroyed by later ages
often to be "written over" by the artists sculptures on the kings dime centuries later

but certainly youve got to goddamn the spanish and their church for burning the inca records

i like to think that there are caretakers of hidden cashes of that knowledge still alive and in practice today.
i use this as a barometer of the present. ie, IF the threat the spanish of that time, was every actually removed...

those people and that knowledge would again resurface...

country boy wrote:

bentech wrote:]

Ben- we know who built the 'great' Egyptian pyramids(or at least was buried there) and when they were built.
They wrote it all down...
.

you mean cheops (kufu) pyramid. they never found anything in that pyramid that states it was HE who had it built, the only reference to it being CHEOPS pyramid was some small graffiti found in the " relief chamber" and know one can see that unless they are a Russian gymnast.. funny thing is archaeologists have only found one small 6 inch statue of CHEOPS until now, youd think if he had this commissioned they would be statue of him all over the place, but alas nothing at all.

I think Cheops was just the custodian of the pyramid and its a lot older than HIM

i can tell you this!

those holes they call pools for boats were parts of sawmills used to cut those blocks!!!

the egyptians might have floated boats in them after the construction
but they were when constructed first

sumps that 30 foot in diameter sawblades would rotate throught to dispense heat
as they sawed multi ton blocks on stone into precise shapes to be incorperated into they pyramids

interesting piece written.....

Humans and Neanderthals never co-existed and missed each other by millennia

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2JfkuKwkB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

an insteresting pre-history site in florida


In the 1970s the overturned shell of an extinct giant land tortoise was found on the 27 meter ledge. A wooden stake had been driven between the carapace and the plastron, and there is evidence of a fire under the tortoise. It appears that the tortoise had been cooked in its shell. The radiocarbon date for the wooden stake was 12,030 years ago, and for a bone from the tortoise, 13,450 years ago.



http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/ ... ar-623732/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Salt_Spring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

a good read

http://nhpr.org/post/stone-age-stew-sou ... ed-thought" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

theres a guy making the news now,
talking about the potential we have present to clone a neanderthal.

they were physically bigger than us,
had bigger brains

in the article i read he suggested that they might actually be superior in inteligence to us
and for our own human sake, this might be a resource for humanity

preah vinear
every seen this place?



http://www.khmerview.com/Preah-Vihear-Photo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preah_Vihear_Temple" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ancient Foragers and Farmers Hit It Off


Archaeologist Alex Bentley of the University of Bristol in the United Kingdom calls the study a "great paper." He adds that the evidence that Neolithic women were migrating into Mesolithic communities is "fascinating," because previous genetic studies had suggested that the opposite happened as farming spread further west into Europe—that is, that hunter-gatherer gals entered Neolithic communities and mated with farmer guys.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2 ... tml?ref=hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

check this out!

looted from korea by an america soldier,
only 3 known to exist



link fixed!

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index ... use_o.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

country boy wrote:The 1's before Sapiens had fire and cooked...hablis/erectus...i'm not gonna google it...
Ya can boil all kinds of stuff without ceramics but it leaves very little evidence.

turns out the evidence is all over the map for anything over 200,000 years back
hearths and ovens use exploded at this time...

guess thats neanderthal, erectus and mabe hablis

heres a grizzly one,
this is the beginning of farming,
when stores show up worth plundering
so you had to have police
and stinking rich few to order them around...




Up to 50 burials, of both adults and children, were identified.

Mr Masefield said: "It's possible that three or so of these burials in [grain storage] pits are what we call 'special burials', because it's not the usual way of doing it.

"It could be ritual or they could be social outcasts."

He said there is evidence found at other sites - though not at Didcot - suggesting Iron Age people did practise human sacrifice and may even have "bred" individual human beings solely for this purpose.

"They are found with immaculate nails and signs of having lived a privileged life, almost like royalty," he said.

"When the person is killed it's been done in three different ways. It appears to be ritual."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-21294884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

no,
but read it again,
they treated these slaves LIKE royalty
right up till the moment they offed them

DID A COMET CAUSE FIRESTORM THAT DEVESTATED NORTH AMERICA 12,900 YEARS AGO?



http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/artic ... estorm.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lots of cool pictures on this page...


Evidence is growing that one or more impact events by comets or meteors may have led to this global catastrophe and Bronze Age Collapse. One such impact occurred in South America. Known as the Rio Cuarto impact, the impact field is over 50 kilometers long and 10 kilometers wide consisting of 11 craters. The largest crater is 4.5 km long and 1.1 km wide. The size of this impact would have undoubtedly had global implications. Locally, it would have set large areas of the Amazon rain forest on fire with an explosive energy 10 times greater than that produced by Arizona’s Barringer Crater event and 30 times more than the

The Tunguska meteor flattened 80 million trees over 2000 square miles as seen in this photo taken in 1927.
Tunguska event which flattened a large area of forest in Russian Siberia in 1908. The Rio Cuarto event would have also created an explosive fireball which would have created hurricane force winds and leveled and incinerated forests for hundreds of miles. Could similar fireballs have been responsible for the destruction in the Old World as well?

It is possible that in addition to the debris that hit land, additional debris landed in the water leading to impact tsunamis. In fact, the Yuchi have legends which speak of when the “ole’ moon broke” and fragments landed in the ocean causing a flood in their homeland of the Bahamas. The destruction forced them to leave and seek out a new home. Perhaps an asteroid slammed into the moon which led to a rain of debris to fall to Earth. Lunar meteorites dating to this time period have been found on Earth providing some evidence for this theory.

M. M. Mandelkehr noted in his book The 2300 BC Event, Vol. II that many “gods” in ancient religions of the Old World which date to this time period have firey and celestial attributes that are consistent with a fireball from space. For instance, the goddess Ishtar dates to this time period in ancient Iraq. She is described as “light of heaven, which arises over the land like fire” and “enclosed in fire and charged with splendor” as well as “the lady who fills the firmament of heaven; through my appearance, fear is established in the heavens.”

Likewise, the Sumerian god Anu was described as “Anu covers all the lands with his fearful radiance” and “whirling through the ‘Heavenly Mansions’.” The Babylonian god Marduk was described as “the male child of the sun” and “the shining one…whose exuberant radiance shines like the rising sunlight.” Thus clearly these ancient myths reveal that the people living at this time witnessed a brilliant light in the sky that rivaled the sun and struck terror in all who saw it.

Shell Hinge?

In his book The 2300 BC Event: Vol. II Mythology- The Eyewitness Accounts:1,



Stonehenge (Courtesy Wikipedia)
Mandelkehr notes that around this time around the world, a massive building spree began with the construction of circular monuments called henges. Stonehenge is by far the most famous such monument. Initial construction is believed to have initiated around 3000 B.C. but extensive modifications were made between 2200-2300 B.C. Britain has hundreds more such monuments constructed during this time period though nothing as large and famous as Stone Henge.

In Norfolk, England a site called Seahenge was unearthed off the coast in 1999. It featured a circle of 55 timbers with a large inverted oak trunk in the center. Circles with a central dot are called circumpuncts in symbology and structures taking the form of a circumpunct became widespread at this point in time. Why?

An anomaly appears in the exact center of the large shell ring at Sapelo.
Thompson notes that some researchers have also found shell debris in the center of shell rings. Ground penetrating radar surveys of the Sapelo Shell Rings show that they, too, contained a central pile of shell in the exact center of the rings turning the entire structure into a giant circumpunct. Again, why? What’s the significance of this symbol and why does it appear simultaneously worldwide?

Researcher Bob Kobres theorizes that the widespread adoption of the circumpunct and concentric circle designs is the result of people all over the world witnessing such designs created in the sky during a heavy meteor bombardment. He notes that when the Earth passes through a dense cosmic debris field it invariably contains lots of dust as well. This dust would enter the upper atmosphere and when the larger meteors enter the atmosphere and exploded it would produce the circumpunct and concentric circle designs in the sky.


In fact, such designs appear on the Forsyth Petroglyph from north Georgia which I interpreted as representing a comet breakup and impact event around 535 AD.

Whatever the truth may be, Sapelo marked the beginning of a new way of life for Georgia’s NativeAmericans. From this humble beginning, these ancient architects would go on to create some of the most complex civilizations on the continent. They would also create some of the most amazing monuments in North America including the next site in our story: Rock Eagle.



http://lostworlds.org/sapelo_shell_rings/3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

i skimmed,
and laughted about the notion this would mean that famous greek author was describing a civilization which existed 10,000 years before him...

still,
given the ancient pre-polonesians sailed the WHOLE of the pacific with stone age technology i dont see it that being that great of a stretch to think europeans couldnt have done it long before greek and roman time.

nor that greeks and romans couldnt have done it themselves.

all that copper had to have gone somewhere
the indians didnt eat it

.

here,
ill make it up to you


Ancient languages reconstructed by computer program

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21427896" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^^^

A new tool has been developed that can reconstruct long-dead languages.

Researchers have created software that can rebuild protolanguages - the ancient tongues from which our modern languages evolved.

Dr Klein said: "Our system still has shortcomings. For example, it can't handle morphological changes or re-duplications - how a word like 'cat' becomes 'kitty-cat'.

^ interesting ben..

i hope they apply this software for the (mohenjadaro civilization) no one has managed to decipher the language since it was un-earthed in 1930

walls streets crushing pressure on higher education is savaging the study of archeology


http://www.guardian.co.uk/higher-educat ... ine-future" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

only 80 meters down,
looks like a building complex to me...

Shipwreck hunters stumble across mysterious find


http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/world/eur ... ck-hunters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Geneticists Estimate Publication Date Of The 'Iliad'


Joel N. Shurkin, ISNS Contributor

Date: 26 February 2013 Time: 06:11 PM ET

(ISNS) -- Scientists who decode the genetic history of humans by tracking how genes mutate have applied the same technique to one of the Western world's most ancient and celebrated texts to uncover the date it was first written.

The text is Homer's "Iliad," and Homer -- if there was such a person -- probably wrote it in 762 B.C., give or take 50 years, the researchers found. The "Iliad" tells the story of the Trojan War -- if there was such a war -- with Greeks battling Trojans.

The researchers accept the received orthodoxy that a war happened and someone named Homer wrote about it, said Mark Pagel, an evolutionary theorist at the University of Reading in England. His collaborators include Eric Altschuler, a geneticist at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, in Newark, and Andreea S. Calude, a linguist also at Reading and the Sante Fe Institute in New Mexico. They worked from the standard text of the epic poem.

The date they came up with fits the time most scholars think the "Iliad" was compiled, so the paper, published in the journal Bioessays, won't have classicists in a snit. The study mostly affirms what they have been saying, that it was written around the eighth century B.C.

That geneticists got into such a project should be no surprise, Pagel said.

"Languages behave just extraordinarily like genes," Pagel said. "It is directly analogous. We tried to document the regularities in linguistic evolution and study Homer's vocabulary as a way of seeing if language evolves the way we think it does. If so, then we should be able to find a date for Homer."

It is unlikely there ever was one individual man named Homer who wrote the "Iliad." Brian Rose, professor of classical studies and curator of the Mediterranean section at the University of Pennsylvania Museum, said it is clear the "Iliad" is a compilation of oral tradition going back to the 13th century B.C.

"It's an amalgam of lots of stories that seemed focused on conflicts in one particular area of northwestern Turkey," Rose said.

The story of the "Iliad" is well known, full of characters like Helen of Troy, Achilles, Paris, Agamemnon and a slew of gods and goddesses behaving badly. It recounts how a gigantic fleet of Greek ships sailed across the "wine dark sea" to besiege Troy and regain a stolen wife. Its sequel is the "Odyssey."

Classicists and archeologists are fairly certain Troy existed and generally know where it is. In the 19th century, the German archeologist Heinrich Schliemann and the Englishman Frank Calvert excavated what is known as the Citadel of Troy and found evidence of a military conflict in the 12th century B.C., including arrows and 5 feet of burned debris around a buried fortress. Whether it was a war between Troy and a foreign element, or a civil war is unknown, Rose said.

The compilation we know as the "Iliad" was written centuries later, the date Pagel is proposing.

The scientists tracked the words in the "Iliad" the way they would track genes in a genome.

The researchers employed a linguistic tool called the Swadesh word list, put together in the 1940s and 1950s by American linguist Morris Swadesh. The list contains approximately 200 concepts that have words apparently in every language and every culture, Pagel said. These are usually words for body parts, colors, necessary relationships like "father" and "mother."

They looked for Swadesh words in the "Iliad" and found 173 of them. Then, they measured how they changed.

They took the language of the Hittites, a people that existed during the time the war may have been fought, and modern Greek, and traced the changes in the words from Hittite to Homeric to modern. It is precisely how they measure the genetic history of humans, going back and seeing how and when genes alter over time.

For example, they looked at cognates, words derived from ancestral words. There is "water" in English, "wasser" in German, "vatten" in Swedish, all cognates emanating from "wator" in proto-German. However, the Old English "hund" later became "hound" but eventually was replaced by "dog," not a cognate.

"I'm an evolutionary theorist," Pagel said. "I study language because it's such a remarkable culturally transmitted replicator. It replicates with a fidelity that's just astonishing."

By documenting the regularity of the linguistic mutations, Pagel and the others have given a timeline to the story of Helen and the men who died for her -- genetics meets the classics.

Joel Shurkin is a freelance writer based in Baltimore. He is the author of nine books on science and the history of science, and has taught science journalism at Stanford University, UC Santa Cruz and the University of Alaska Fairbanks.

Inside Science News Service is supported by the American Institute of Physics.


http://www.livescience.com/27482-geneti ... iliad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting read ^

.

our society can only benefit from the understanding
of its forcepts failuability


goddamn the mines,
full speed ahead

.

interesting doc

Lost Kingdoms of South America Lands of Gold.... full documentary 2013



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ync3lNs6SKU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i liked that documentary dill
like the angle it takes

country boy wrote:

bentech wrote:our society can only benefit from the understanding
of its forcepts failuability


goddamn the mines,
full speed ahead

...you don't use real words...

just read forebearer when you come across forcepts and youll do fine

.

http://hokulea.org/support/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


great video on ancient pacific sailors and modern attempts to recreate their achievements.

its official
cyrstal skulls are hoax

http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i9/Cryst ... -Fake.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The fact that one of the Boban-sourced artifacts at the Quai Branly Museum is fake whereas the other is probably a legitimate pre-Columbian artifact speaks to the dealer’s fascinating and controversial role in the movement of Mesoamerican artifacts in the late-19th century. Boban initially left France to join California’s gold rush, but after failing to strike it rich, he went to Central America and began exporting Mayan and Aztec artifacts, says Walsh, who is writing a book about him. “Most of the objects he sold were legitimate,” she says. “But his big-ticket items were for the most part fake.” A century after his crimes, modern analytical chemistry continues to help museum researchers separate Boban’s bona fide pieces from the bogus.

600-Year-Old Coin Found
600-Year-Old Coin Found, Scientists from Illinois have found a rare, 600-year-old Chinese coin on the Kenyan island of Manda.

The Field Museum in Chicago announced the find Wednesday. The joint expedition was led by Chapurukha Kusimba of the museum and Sloan Williams of the University of Illinois-Chicago.....sfgate.

Researchers say the coin proves trade existed between China and eastern Africa decades before European explorers set sail.

The coin is made of copper and silver. It has a square hole in the center so it could be worn on a belt. Scientists say it was issued by Emperor Yongle of China and his name is written on the coin.

Scientists from Kenya, Pennsylvania and Ohio also participated in the expedition. They also found human remains and other artifacts predating the coin.

.

mabe you could make that sound not so racist?

.

what are indians like?

SERRA DA CAPIVARA NATIONAL PARK, BRAZIL—Sharp-edged stones, found at Brazil’s Toca da Tira Peia rock shelter, have been dated to 22,000 years ago using luminescence techniques. Geochronologist Christelle Lahaye of the University of Bordeaux and archaeologist Eric Boёda of the University of Paris think that the stones are tools made by humans. “We have new, strong evidence that the Clovis-first model is out of date,” said Lahaye. Similar tools have been found at Chile’s Monte Verde site. Tom Dillehay of Vanderbilt University estimates that Monte Verde was settled by 14,000 years ago, and perhaps as early as 33,000 years ago. The Toca da Tira Peia rock shelter is located in the same national park as the Pedra Furada rock shelter, where sharp-edged stone tools and bits of burned wood have been dated to 50,000 years ago. If people were living in South America at this time, “this is the type of archaeological record we might expect: ephemeral and lightly scattered material in local shelters,” commented Dillehay.



http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... _years_ago" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

they are finding charcoal
the question is whether or not it the product of heart fires or natural fires

i think that dating evidence derived from the analysis of buried quartz crystals stands on its own
that method is sounds as bedrock

the dates of the samples done that way can only be old than the analysis

.

dunno,
i thought a hearth was far more advanced than rock rings,
indicated much greater development,
ie
later date than just fires for warmth and spits

.

i agree,
the acceptance that the date of the hearth layer is the key to them

i dont know enough about this infrascopic method of dating the burial of certain minerals to have a firm opinion here

id imagine the ability to do such years ago as in my wanderings far afield i came across crystals which had been placed in spots geology didnt allow. i realized someone had put them there and i wondered if there was a way of dating this

not yet it seems, but this way of analysis of buried minerals is a start on that path

the synopsys implied that the minerals they were dating WERE in conjunction with hearths
id like to see pictures

and i know that artifacts move up and down through historic layers of sediment over time due to temperature and its effect on moisture; theres a name for this i wont even try to spell out

but this is much more a factor as the object in question exceeds the granular size of the sedimentation...

this method of dating buried soil seems rather insular from that mechanic

for a minute i thought you were anti rainbow/drainbow,but thats next month in S.missouri the 17th or is that may ?
hate to see trash parked and parks trashed that's why rainbow cleans their shit up !! go dirty hippees,hooray !! big gatherin in Montana july 1 -7th usual psychedelic guidelines for behavior will be in effect,no tripping for forest service,unless you pick,just one mushroom could have a profound effect on a parks dept. employee

.

lost mayan city discovered....


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... years.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the introduction of lidor radar is opening up new frontiers in finding these lost places as ariel and satalite photography has in the past.

over the past couple years its been used in cambodia and has found half a dozen unlooted temples and an extensive system of roads and canals which triples the size of angkor wat which was previously acknowledged

interesting read................


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -Giza.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tomb of alexander the great found ( press conference)

WOW !! if its all true.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... GDI0vEHHk4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One should remain sceptical I think until some independent corroboration is supplied. A giggle search on the "discoverer's" name wasn't reassuring.

we know more about ancient history today than the greeks and the romans did at their point in time...

they lamented their not knowing
whats to honestly make of all the rubble laying around

they knew to hate kings...
passed down from etruscan domination

that was about it...

were sending their kids to egypt to study
the africans had the best universities at the time///

Jesús Malverde wrote:One should remain sceptical I think until some independent corroboration is supplied. A giggle search on the "discoverer's" name wasn't reassuring.

yeah bagdhad djillai LOL i think its a hoax too

found this an interesting read........

"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... s_20131121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Newly Found Megalithic Ruins In Russia Contain The Largest Blocks Of Stone Ever Discovered

these are huge stones !!!

http://thetruthwins.com/archives/newly- ... discovered" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Yi2qDo5p4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

looks like a natural site to me,
geo-lythes

been listening to chris dunn about the giza powerplant..

usually have it playing in the background while i get stoned.. intresting stuff about egyptians and there sophisticated tools ......

very good one!
i listened to the extended interview as well

.

remember reading about that last year
reminded me of all the times when we were digging to build foundations
the boss would tell us

"if you see any bones you throw them in the bin
cover em up
and dont tell nobody!"

whats a trip
over the last decade
is the archeologists digging the primitive mayan sites
site which came after the empire
as its infrastructure colapsed and they had to start fending for the safety in new ways

they stood and thought
"where would i go if i had to leave the city?"
kinda how you find native american sites
ie, where would you like to camp
where you could defend themselves


started finding primitive rockworks

barricades and such

bingo

the boxes of the serapeaum
tunnels of giza


even the eqyptaligists say they have no idea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j9uHyDSH0s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ aweome

the egyptians were just master masons !!!!

that video doesnt mention it
but the recording you posted earlier did dill

those boxes were finished to those incredible tolerances and sheens AFTER they had been moved into their niche's!

the first one encountered was sitting in the corridor being moved into place and its still of rough finish
the stone guys said anything that well machined would be "out" after being transported

and the results speak to this

.

working on his 1493 yet?

only learned of those earthworks and midges in the upper amazon 5 or so years ago
rad fucking shit


im with the revisionists
knowing about boats helps
people got here long before presently accepted


one mistake made is thinking the landbridge was something you walked over to get to the other side and pick back up.

but it was half a continent on its own.

people PEOPLED across it... taking thousands of years and hundreds of generations to grown into its valleys and vales till eventually they simply over populated into what today we call north america.

the erosion evidence sells it for me regarding egypts big stuff

what we label construction in the classic periods was nothing but chipping new names into eon old cartooches

those pyramids got built long before what is present accepted

they were devices,
not tombs

they were being repurposed as tombs when the egyptians started making records is all

country boy wrote:Got though 1491 by Charles Mann.
I think for anyone interested in this thread, it's worth a read.
It's not Chariots of the Gods, but close

thanks ill order it, wonder if its available as a audio book.......

.

the lecture was intresting espically about malaria and how the afrcian slaves were immune from it etc.....

.

is there anyplace your not an asshole?

READING, ENGLAND—John Francis Carson of the University of Reading and his colleagues examined sediment cores taken from Laguna Oricore and Laguna Granja, which are located near major earthworks sites in the Amazon basin of northeastern Bolivia. The researchers wanted to know if the activities of the people who had built the earthworks had deforested the region, or if they had tread lightly on the landscape. “The surprising thing we found was that it was neither. It was this third scenario where, when people first arrived on the landscape, the climate was drier,” Carson told Live Science. The pollen samples from the cores indicate that between 2,000 and 3,000 years ago, the land was covered with grasses and a few drought-resistant species of trees. People would have been able to build their structures and grow maize without have to clear the land. More tree pollen and less charcoal in later samples suggest that people would have had to keep the areas around their structures clear as the forest grew up around them. “It kind of makes sense. It’s easier to stomp on a sapling than it is to cut down a big Amazonian tree with a stone ax,” Carson explained.



http://www.livescience.com/46682-earthe ... orest.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

country boy wrote: Did he mention about Italians having immunity(fucked up blood cells) also?
Maybe cause their ancestors were exposed to malaria, maybe cause they are niggers too?
OMG, there's a smilie just for me?!

the scillians have moorish blood lol..

but they dont like to hear that, they downplay the muslim card..

the injuns were clever people, i like the way they set fire to forests so grass could grow and the bison would come to graze.. awesome i guess its better than trying to chase them down...

they would also burn under the oak trees before theyd mast in order to not only make it easier to collect the acorns but it would also kill back the insects which like to burrow into the acorns as well


ive collected and processed acorns several times over the last few years
its really a tedious process

Sacagawea's father was quite the orator and several of his works are recorded. i recall one where he puzzles at the colonists attacking instead of asking and getting much more. he said something like " i cant believe youd want to drive us off into the woods away from our women where we will have to live on acorns..."

.

the injuns didnt have a concept of land ownership like the europeans did......

europeans came in and started to put markers on land which they thought belong to them, and the injuns just couldnt figure out what the fuck was going on, "how can it be there land when we share everything"

sometimes i see some artists drawings about the injuns, i loved the ones which depicted there lifestyles on the savannahs, fire burning and the wigwams, kids playing around, grown ups roasting buffalo meat, women cleaning hides, just seemed so cool and really back to nature, i bet no injuns suffered from depression like we do in the modern era !!!

I like the skin kettle for cooking in the last pic, purty cool!

Remember tho, horses are not native and introduced in the americas with the Europeans. So pics with horses are showing a culturally contaminated indigenous people and not in their natural ecological niche, And maybe a little stressed over the white man presence as the horses were likely obtained from fighting with the new-comers/invaders.

^ yeah thats true, the conquistdors brought them over aswell as chicken pox and other nasty diseases....

dill786 wrote:the injuns didnt have a concept of land ownership like the europeans did......

europeans came in and started to put markers on land which they thought belong to them, and the injuns just couldnt figure out what the fuck was going on, "how can it be there land when we share everything"

Hmmm I disagree somewhat. I think that is a kinda myth or over generalization. It has been a while since reading the Lewis and Clarke's journals but I member them encountering a vast but loosely connected Indian civilization the middle of the Mississippi/ Missouri drainage, mostly peaceful and sharing peoples. (don’t mistake sharing with a lack of ownership) For the first months never camping in the “wilderness”.

But on the headwaters around the Dakotas in the north both going and coming back they encountered a few tribes that were very possessive of their land and the right to cross it. their first winter camp was picked partially not to winter over on claimed areas. and fortified cause of the local tribes unfriendliness. tho the injuns never actually attacked them in force. On the return one tribe just ominously followed the expedition till the expedition left their area.

^ thanks bro i will google lewis and clarke journals. asweome i will read it tonight

its a western prejudice to determine property ownership claims from actions occuring on said land


you can easily agree that all men are entitled to the land
all the while fiercely defending the trail youve cut across it

Cool link i think y'all might enjoy http://freethoughtnation.com/the-maya-a ... milky-way/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dung beetles have been shown as the only creatures we are aware of that use the visual sighting of the milky way to orient themselves terestrially

Wow...can't get much lower then that...guess it's easily summed up with dung beetles then...sigh

.

.

country boy wrote:ripper-the link you posted always comes back with an error?

Damn! Scarabs are interesting!
The rolling ball of shit symbolizes the Sun and rebirth/renewal.
A great example of insect offspring care.
A great design, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
There are fossils of 'dung beetle'-like insect activity from the time of the dinosaurs!

ye really intresting, the egyptians liked them too, i am sure i read that once,

.

ripper5 wrote:Cool link i think y'all might enjoy http://freethoughtnation.com/the-maya-a ... milky-way/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Saw this--thought of ya'll...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trave ... world.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thats crazy!

tons of ejecta scattered around
but the depth doesnt match an impact event

its as if a meteor landed right where a sinkhole was about to open up

.

skoff

heh
i actually know who your talking about now
a real meat head

think about it cb

IF subsurface "gas" was responsible for this molhole

wouldnt there be dozens if not hundreds of them in example?

.

jeez

the freezing thawning cycle happen the artic world over
if that was the mechanism
there would be holes like that all fucking over

thats a sink hole which somehow managed to eject a signifiant amount of debris

theres your mystery dumbasss

The first expedition to the scene - the scientists have just returned - took these epic pictures of the hole, including the darkening pattern on the inner rim.

They found the crater - around up to 70 metres deep - has an icy lake at its bottom, and water is cascading down its eroding permafrost walls.

The researchers were unable to make their way to the bottom of the lake, but did go inside the crater.

'There is ice inside the crater which gradually thaws under the sun.

'Also there is melted water flowing down from its sides, you can see water traces on the pictures. The crater is filled with ice by about eighty per cent. '

He stressed: 'We are working with space photographs to figure out exact time of its formation.

'We have taken soil and ice samples which went straight to laboratories. We can be certain in saying that the crater appeared relatively recently, perhaps a year or two ago; so it is a recent formation, we are not talking about dozen years ago.

'But we have to do our tests and research first and then say it more definitively'.

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casest ... the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that things crazy
it up there in permafront territory
so in the surrounding
everythings frozen solid below 10 feet underground

so when you go a crater
waters gonna defrost and pore into it

whats crazy
for all that water pouring into it
theres more than equal amounts of methane
being released into the atmosphere as gas

Walls smooth as tho it was excavated--tons of rock and soil piled up. After those pics, I'm thinking more and more like the MoleMen.

to big for men
and it aint machine kinds smooth
machines leaves marks

this looks all thousand years old water action

it looks like cliffs that have been out in the air for eons
not anything escavated

sink holes colapse down

this site had ejecta
piles of rubble blown up and out away from the hole

bombs dont dig holes in the ground like were seeing here
and sink holes dont ejecta

so its still a big mystery

.

Amazon tribe who had never met other humans now have FLU..


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... u-FLU.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

its really shitty
resource extraction interest are constantly encroaching
pushing em back
making em fight

kinda the deal
when you down to basics

and on top of that
knocking em out with your germs

you fucking animals

.

country boy wrote:How do the 'uncontacted' indians deal with malaria and yellow fever?
...

They get the Republican Healthcare: Die Quickly

country boy wrote:How do the 'uncontacted' indians deal with malaria and yellow fever?

Also:

machete.jpg

That kid is holding a machete

ha ye

well spotted !!!

hopefully
that kid gets the chance to shove it up the ass of someone working for the man

we are all fucked as a race..

mabe dill
but that sounds to me like choking on an aliby

meanwhile they keep us little people fighting amongst ourselves

think about it
how far are any of us wage earners
above those people?

that is on the scale of the people who pay to tell us what to think?

we've got almost nowhere...

do you really like your cloths?

.

Not to mention for a single tribe is too small a gene pool to maintain a healthy genome over several generations, there always has to be mating influx and outflux from other tribes/people.


Thanks CB i was thinking of the tasady debacle too. couldn't remember their name.

i know flintnapping

mind you, im not good at it
but in addition to the practice

theres this history aspect

it gets done different ways
over time
over regions

to the point that what we look at today
tells us all kinds of stuff
place and timewise

simply by looking at how the guy making something
decided to hit it and what resulted

fucking crazy

the old story is that indeginious people were static till the west shows up

but the science is showing us glimpses into how they morphed and adaped and changed over the thousands of years as the climate and surroundings did

just found this one
deals with a desert valley i kinda know


the obsidyn train

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1l0A_c4ns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

heres the shorter takes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IayUmwwDynA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

these tribal people war with there neighbours and on many occasions take there women and breed with them so i guess for a while they do have that healthy genome...

country boy wrote: Is obsidian 'better' than flint, Ben?

i dont know
id have to guess
i know that if you heat treat flint
its becomes more workable

and we have found sites where flint was being industrially heat treated
going back 60 thousand

that video talks about the commercial aspect of what their finding
we always know stuff got around
but putting dates on flakes

suddenly were seeing the reality

folks were trading hundreds of miles
walking to do it

and they were coming home with stuff from a thousand miles away

I heard regular trading went on between the coastal injuns suppling tar with the mountain Sierra's injuns bringing obsidian.

you drive up the 395
its the hwy up from the deasert
in the valley between the serria west
and nevada

and you can still see the trails they walked

lines down throught the hills

guys walked those trails
doing their jobs of the day
for thousands of years

their great greats had

made a line in the soil so deep

we can still see it 2 hunddren yuaers after

i look at my work often
and think
whats anyone
realy gonna think

i see the fingerprints of workers came before me
as i do my work

then i see my own

and i wonder

.
.

well,
i was taken out with a groups of archeology students
they said they were trade routes
there were several rock shelters in the area that had been prelimilarly explored
there were all these metal pickets stuck in the ground marking out flakes and other artifacts for later digs

but these pickets were decades old they said

ive noticed game trails are much steeper and they run over terrains you wouldnt want to walk without having to climb in places. as compared to this one that is clearly a human trail

there are two very obvious ones decending the other canyon side right there near fossil falls which was a habitation site going back

study shows it was heavily inhavited going back between 10 and 20 thousand years ago

I’ve traveled several times the old trade route from Santa Barbara town over the pass, down Santa Barbara canyon and then into the central valley or the sierras. Los Padres NF has all but abandoned it’s trail of it decades ago, but the route is just to worn down for it to disappear.

The route travels over a pass the Spanish named puerta suela, translated from the injuns as Door or Foot Entrance. As in: the door from the coast to inland.

Also a days walk west on the Santa Madra ridge are sandstone caves with injun paintings, and large open potreros, verdant green in spring, said to be a meeting place for many peoples. The rocks are worn in grooves from many feet traveling across. And worn rock ladders!

.

this has got to be one of the coolest flintnapped anythings ive ever seen
was found out on a channel island just off LA,
settlement activity there goes back to as least 12 thousand years so far as discovered



Island tool finds show early settlers' diversity
4 March 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12646364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Peopling the Americas — New evidence
7 April 2011

http://whyfiles.org/2011/peopling-the-a ... -evidence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

geologists have been using OSL for 3o years!

and no...
i hadnt noticed a lack of carbon data from "all" these places

do all "pre clovis" sites lack carbon dating?

this is excellant


Published on Mar 12, 2012

Lecture by Dr. Dennis Stanford, Head of the Archaeology Division, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution at the 2008 Nobel conference at Gustavus Adolphus College.


Solutreans:First Americans:The Ice-Age Discovery of the Americas: Constructing an Iberian Solution .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY01NjND1jc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wonder what the solutreans and the asians thought of each other when they first met in the americas !!!

its a big place... they might never have
if you watch that video of dr stanford till the end he takes questions and he smiles when the question of the extinction of mega-fauna in north america is brought up. no he says, i dont they they managed to do that

just wernt nearly enough of them

concerning the napping of chert; the stone is much more "workable" if its been heat treated.
most modern nappers buy the 'blanks' they then set into working on
these blanks have been heat treated

other guys build these homemade furnaces out of bricks and use propane to do this themselves
its a complicated process in that it takes about 16 hours and the temperature needs to remain very stable during this period

so whats crazy is that in south africa
they have found a location where stone heat treating was taking place on an industrial scale

its at least 72,000 years old and another site that is more like 150,000

these are very complicated hearths that took dilligent preperations for and care over the process

id read about this several years ago and found mention of it again

http://www.becominghuman.org/node/news/ ... tone-tools" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you know,
you dont need carbon IF your finding under the clovis layer

but at at cactus hill
they had datable material under the clovis where they found the other cultures artifacts

16,900

.

doesnt refute a culture thousands previous to clovis,
not to mention the stuff in brazil and a couple other places in south america that are 20 thousand plus old

im a fan of the boat theories as well and even if solutreans didnt people the america's and father the clovis culture im sure that quite a number of them made the boat trip

as it really look like south africans managed to sail west across the whole of the south atlantic to find the lower america's

.

cant help it if youve no imagination or deductive ability

.

link???
dumbass
think about it
their in south america tens of thousands before their in north america... obvious came STRAIGHT THERE

the most advanced culture anywhere near south america is south africa... duh?



freee???
heh... i aint been able to see a doctor in 4 months cuz i ran out of gas money...

.

vikings did it after only a few hundred years of boating
the nesians did it GIVEN they crossed the pacific to the new world then settled their way back...

south africans had 40,000 years to work on it... why is this beyond the pale?

.

CB i think ben's hypothesis is reasonable, after all a corner stone of the scientific method is to question the accepted.

Now if one could show the SA's were not known for sailing skills ... or conversely.

.

your the only person who's read what ive said and interpreted it as a stand on fact

your one dimension is stuningly revealed here cb,

.

that wasnt even said...

you might want to check the resume of that servant youve got who turns all this text into audio for you so that you can 'read' it

we thinks hes fuckin up

.

youll have to wait,
the person who translates movies into text for me so that i can see them doesnt come in till noon

if you sailed from west Africa the trade winds would take you to the tip of south America anyway...

that means the polynesians rafted upwind to reach chile

madagascar island was populated by indians in dugout canoes from borneo
other side of the indian ocean

country boy wrote:The scientific method assumes testing of the hypothesis, Intrinsic.
Without it, mere speculation.
If the vikings did it,
Then the SA's did too.
Next you'll divide by '0'

Righto, that is why I suggested investigating the early SA’s sailing skills.
I said it was a reasonable hypothesis, that is it does not contradicted any known facts I’m aware of?

dill786 wrote:if you sailed from west Africa the trade winds would take you to the tip of south America anyway...

thanks dill, i was going suggest that as another avenue to peruse, if the ocean currents and trade winds are favorable,

Migraciones austronesias

.

turns out that nothing supports his ideas EXCEPT for the distribution of potato's and stone carvings through the islands

everything else,
language
cultural idioms
not to mention dna all suggest the opposite and traditional view

leading the best thinkers to reason that the polynesians very quickly reached south america,
but then decided to colonize the islands they had hopped across on

bringing stone carving traditions and potato's back with them

for a while it was believed that they had introduced chickens to south america

but that seems to be falling through due to dna studyies

.

you remind me of this event i witnessed once on the river
riverbank actually
we was canoeing the sacramento for a week
strong current
you could just float 60 miles in a week if you wanted
do some pulling and you could double your mileage

youd keep your eyes peeled for rope swings along the banks
run across a few ever day
they were a highlight
some were big

this one in particular was wild
the bank was steep; probably 55 degrees
and all tree roots
the top of the bank where youd cast off from musta been 15 feet above the water

the swing was a steering wheel on a cable
and if you were short
someone else would have to hold the wheel and youd jump up to catch it and then youd hold on for the ride
the wheel had several shoe laces tied to it so you could pull it up to you if you were tall enough
and if you were real cordinated
you could use the shoelace to whip the steering wheel up to where you could jump and grab it

watched this adult try to do this maneuver
he wasnt tall enough to grab it
but didnt really have to jump
but in any event
he went for it
missed the wheel
and so holding onto only a loop of the shoelace
he was off down the bank

he knew better than to try and lift off on the shoelace
so away he went running down the bank
stepping from root to root
using the shoelace to just balance himself enough not to spill

at the waters edge were all our canoes pulled up and tied
so at the very last he had to jump out and over one of them to hit a little patch of water in between it and another
thankfully the water was 5 feet deep

one of the craziest things i ever seen
i was sure he was dead meat
he hollar'd the whole way down



talk talk, talk talk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hHnOBlwU3A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

you know my gears all gone and i dont have a penny to spare for gas
even to go to the doctors appointments anymore

aint every had your silverspooned welfare old man


look what i found just today!


The First Americans Were Africans: Documented Evidence
[ the asian who crossed the bering sea land bridge were the 5th wave of migration to reach the america's]

"the shortest way to reach the america's is from the west coast of africa"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE8LJzoupFM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

lots of giant standing stones and lintels in france
theres this one
its laying on the ground in three pieces today
but it was described several times by sailors going back several hundred years

its was well over 100 feet tall

heres a longer version of that preclovis spear point found 50 miles offshore of virginia's chesapeake bay inm 250 feet of water by fishermen who pulled of a snagged net to find a mastadon skull and the spear point in their net.

what are the chances those two objects just happened to WASH out there and settle close enough one swipe of a fishing net grabs em both at the same time?

"both pieces showed characteristic weathering that indicated they were exposed to the air for a while and then submerged in a saltwater marsh, before finally being buried in seawater."


its definately not a clovis point

http://news.yahoo.com/fisherman-pulls-b ... 31893.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:lots of giant standing stones and lintels in france
theres this one
its laying on the ground in three pieces today
but it was described several times by sailors going back several hundred years

its was well over 100 feet tall

If you're into standing stones and stuff then you need to get your hands on a book by Julian Cope called The Modern Antiquarian, it's an excellent book about all thing's neolithic in the British Isles, I picked up a copy when it first came out and still go back to it regularly for a read.

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/home/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thats a great site zool!

i found my rock and my recollections was spotty,
i recalled it being 165' tall; but it was 65
and its laying in 4 pieces not three

the Great Broken Menhir

The Locmariaquer megaliths are a complex of Neolithic constructions in Locmariaquer, Brittany. They comprise the elaborate Er-Grah tumulus passage grave, a dolmen known as the Table des Marchand[1] and "The Broken Menhir of Er Grah", the largest known single block of stone to have been transported and erected by Neolithic man.

its was theorized for a long time that it was pulled down but computer modeling now suggest an earthquake in 1772 is a more likely culprit



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir#France" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://searchoflife.com/the-ancient-ave ... 2014-02-09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

how about they first STOP subsidizing miners and loggers!??!?!?!
fuckers!

have a relative who was a sales rep for a company that made huge wood chippers whos territory was brazil

gotta piece of my mind
"and you have the NERVE to go to church!"

fucking sadist

country boy wrote:Nice 1 Zool!
Unfortunately, in NA there is a lack of 'piles of rocks' to visit.

Here's another 'contacted' tribe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... world.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm starting to see a pattern:
'Both the Brazilian and Peruvian authorities must provide the necessary funds to protect them, while there is still time, otherwise one more innocent people will be wiped out in full view of the international public'

thanks..

really interesting read..

did you know Disney cooperation now own stonehenge???

dill786 wrote:did you know Disney cooperation now own stonehenge???

WHAT!!!!!

Fuck me Dill don't do that, I nearly choked on my cup of tea.

"There is a new visitor center being built. Plans are as of December 21, 2013 those who visit the site will do so by using a small train that will carry them from the visitor's center to the site. The site has not, I repeat NOT been sold to the Walt Disney Corporation to be made into a theme park! Disney is part of the name of the construction company that is building the visitor center"

http://www.ndy.com/projects/stonehenge- ... ts-project" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hi zool

i heard it hear... ok not disney lol. but a company that makes weapons etc.. weird !!!!

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 09336.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did a search on it and there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding because of the company name, the quote I posted came from here
https://www.facebook.com/TruthTheory/po ... 9966975482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The site is owned by English Heritage along with lot's of other sites across the UK it's also a scheduled ancient monument, even with the nasty party running the country there's no way would they be able to get away with selling it off there would be major fireworks if they tried.

why do humans through centuries have so much infinity with stones !!?

its permenance, as compared, was obvious and highly regarded

This is well worth a look and may answer a few questions for you Dill

.

Zool wrote:This is well worth a look and may answer a few questions for you Dill

hi zool.

it says vid wont play in my country even though i live in UK, ill find it on yt though thanks

Ah ok, I'm in France so perhaps it's not blocked here, a quick summary.
It put's forward a theory about the landscape around stonehenge being a transition from the land of the living to the land of the dead, with some very believable evidence to back it up. I won't go any further but it's fascinating stuff and worth wasting an hour on.

oh right..

isnt there a "woodhenge right opposite stonehenge too, i am sure i saw that on time team a few years back, one was for death the other for life (renewal)

Yes there is and there are other elements as well such as the cursus and the river, the whole area has ceremonial significance, I used to live around there and you are surrounded by all this stuff but I didn't really gain an understanding of it until I had moved away and did a load of reading up on it.
A bunch of us used to regularly go here https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/day ... ds-smithy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to get hammered, it adds a good ambiance to the experience.

oh yah i been there too a few years ago now, was awesome got there at around 9pm, streaks of light were shooting though the stones, my friend and i drove right up to the barbed wire, no one was around could have easily jumped over and got a closer look at the stones if we wanted too, really awesome stayed for a good 2 hours smoking dope in the car and looking at it, i doubt if you could get so close now though...

It didn't used to be fenced off 20 odd years ago so you could just walk straight onto it, it's a nice place to get stoned then go for a wander down the ridgeway, I don't know about you but I got some really odd almost primeval vibes when I was there.

^ yeah i did i think i mentioned it on another thread too.. a feeling of well being and tranquility.. loved it







ps... drove to hadrians wall on the same day too, walked on the wall for a while.. over the centuries the blocks of stones were taken and buildings were built from them you could clearly see them..

I know what you mean about the tranquility feeling, experienced it in a few other places in the area one being Silbury Hill and a few other places around Avebury, the whole place is amazing once you understand the scale of it.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/day ... bury-hill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have never made it to Hadrians wall, I did step over the Scottish border once many years ago just to say I had been there but not been back there since, It's one of those places I need to visit before I get too old.
There's a henge close to were I live at the moment called "Col du Petit Saint-Bernard Cromlech" I have co ordinates for it but I can't find the bloody thing, I might have another look for it after the tourist season ends and the road's are a bit quieter, it's not a big one and you could easily miss it if you are having to contend with traffic.
One other thing that might be usefull to anybody interested is an add on for google earth that lists all the ancient sites, you can get it here
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/googleEarth/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It needs patience to use because it really slows down the PC

google earth will litterally change how your brains works!

used it a ton when it first came out,
then there was an upgrade and the controls changed and i couldnt figure it out anymore and now it doesnt even run on my computer anymore and i cant reinstall it

but i got to use it enough to augment my brain

loved clicking the 'terrain' so that the satalite picture was stretched down over a topographical wireframe
then youd lower the angle of view and you could 'fly' around
through canyons

circle mountains
really see the places

awesome

cant wait for them to get their shit together enough so i can use it again

If you are still using vista it should work, I'm using xp on a PC so old you have to shovel coal in the back once an hour
perhaps you might find some solution here
https://support.google.com/earth/answer ... 7.1.2.2041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:google earth will litterally change how your brains works!

used it a ton when it first came out,
then there was an upgrade and the controls changed and i couldnt figure it out anymore and now it doesnt even run on my computer anymore and i cant reinstall it

but i got to use it enough to augment my brain

loved clicking the 'terrain' so that the satalite picture was stretched down over a topographical wireframe
then youd lower the angle of view and you could 'fly' around
through canyons

circle mountains
really see the places

awesome

cant wait for them to get their shit together enough so i can use it again

hey ben

NOW they are combining sound with google earth too, so you can hear the sounds of the places you visit on google earth.....

have you noticed that native American Indians dont suffer hereditary hair loss!??

i have never seen a bald indian...

must be DNA and not the diet...

Indigenous Australians are the same

i wonder if there has ever been a case study were scientists have seen that male Indians who have fathered male children from non native women just to see if there male children have suffered from hereditary hair loss too !!!?

i think that would be interesting to know .....

.

native Indians dont have much facial and body hair either like the Chinese have you noticed !!?

.

so the asians bred the pre clovis people out?

.

obivously the people who "populated" the amera's ARE NOT in any way the first americans

it takes nothing away from the africans and europeans who got here GOT HERE FIRST that they didnt endure genetically over the long term

they still got here first;
spread out and left evidence

Africa[edit]The earliest definitive evidence of human control of fire was found at Swartkrans, South Africa.[8] Several burnt bones were found among Acheulean tools, bone tools, and bones with hominid-inflicted cut marks.[4] This site also shows some of the earliest evidence of carnivory in H. erectus. The Cave of Hearths in South Africa has burned deposits dated from 200,000 to 700,000 BP, as do various other sites such as Montagu Cave (58,000 to 200,000 BP) and at the Klasies River Mouth (120,000 to 130,000 BP).[4]

The strongest evidence comes from Kalambo Falls in Zambia where several artifacts related to the use of fire by humans had been recovered including charred logs, charcoal, reddened areas, carbonized grass stems and plants, and wooden implements which may have been hardened by fire. The site was dated through radiocarbon dating to be at 61,000 BP and 110,000 BP through amino acid racemization.[4]

Fire was used to heat treat silcrete stones to increase their workability before they were knapped into tools by Stillbay culture.[9][10][11] This research identifies this not only with Stillbay sites that date back to 72,000 BP but sites that could be as old as 164,000 BP.[9]



4. James, Steven R. (February 1989). "Hominid Use of Fire in the Lower and Middle Pleistocene: A Review of the Evidence". Current Anthropology (University of Chicago Press) 30 (1): 1–26. doi:10.1086/203705. Retrieved 2012-04-04.

8.Jump up ^ Renfrew and Bahn (2004). Archaeology: Theories, Methods and Practice (Fourth Edition). Thames and Hudson, p341.

9.^ Jump up to: a b Brown KS, Marean CW, Herries AI, Jacobs Z, Tribolo C, Braun D, Roberts DL, Meyer MC, Bernatchez J. (2009). Fire As an Engineering Tool of Early Modern Humans. Science, 325: 859-862. doi:10.1126/science.1175028

10.Jump up ^ Webb J. Domanski M. (2009). Fire and Stone. Science, 325: 820-821. doi:10.1126/science.1178014

11.Jump up ^ Callaway. E. (13 August 2009) Earliest fired knives improved stone age tool kit New Scientist, online


check out the lower paleo stuff!


Control of fire by early humans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of ... rly_humans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Most Incredible Human Evolution Discoveries of the New Millennium
New fossil and archaeological finds, along with insights from genetics, are upending the story of our origins

Aug 19, 2014
By Kate Wong

Rising Star Expedition

An Ancestor to Call Our Own

First of Our Kind: Could Australopithecus sediba Be Our Long Lost Ancestor?

Stranger in a New Land

The Littlest Human

Rethinking "Hobbits": What They Mean for Human Evolution

When the Sea Saved Humanity

Neanderthals Made Leather-Working Tools Like Those in Use Today

Caveman Couture: Neandertals Rocked Dark Feathers

Did Neandertals Think Like Us?

Neandertal Genome Study Reveals That We Have a Little Caveman in Us


Sex with Neandertals Introduced Helpful and Harmful DNA into the Modern Human Genome

Sex with Other Human Species Might Have Been Secret of Homo sapiens’s Success

New DNA Analysis Shows Ancient Humans Interbred with Denisovans

Tibetans Inherited High-Altitude Gene from Ancient Human



http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... illennium/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

amazing people the mayans.. i wonder what other secrets they will unearth in the coming months, three thousand square miles of undiscovered ruins...

.

^ well i guess its just like modern day politics CB. keep the masses occupied by games and events and they wont bother whos in charge or whats going on as long as they have entertainment and games on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.. i guess the mayan hierarchy knew this hence all the ball courts and events etc....

.

^ nice on CB

i think ill watch apacalypto tonight in HD and surround sound with a nice big spliff

.

i think i read once that cortez knew when the eclipse was going to happen through the mayan codex and played that to his advantage or was it coloumbus not sure !!!

Here's a sad wiki link about codices:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

really boggles the mind doesnt it!?? how these ancient people a millennium ago knew and indexed the stars and constellations..

i bet some of the codecs still exist buried deep down in some caves in the Yucatan peninsula !!!

SO much ancient knowledge was hidden away

its safe to say that we can know the natives havnt been let out of bondage and given their freedom back because they still need to guard that stuff
keep it secret

.

.

country boy wrote:Cause it's cool:
http://decipherment.wordpress.com/2011/ ... om-tonina/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[attachment=0]tonina060711mzs4.jpg[/attachment

he looks like a mongolian/polynesian !!! maybe asiatic

.

.

great read thanks CB.

watched this last year, really liked it !! thought i share

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNTXCMYjwEk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Solutreans Are Indigenous Americans

10 plus years back
the news was bout this guy theyd found floating
his boat was for shit and had died on him off the southern california coast

but it was 4 months later and the coast guard off a south american country had found him
just drifting along

fucker hadnt even prepared for the vacation


and it suddenly dawned on my

how far and how long i could go just drifting along



you can pick up an old boat still sitting in the water
for 15 hundred dollars or less these days

hell,
some people will given em away provided your sure to take it away at a certain date

3 to 8 months vacation
all the sushi you can eat
nobody talking shit you cant toss overboard and be done with
it doesnt get much better than this
who needs the sand if you got the waves?!?!?!

.

yeah it was an ok doc..

interesting though.. these guys were tough and resilient not like now,, everyone is so much of a pussy !!

lately been watching lots of YT vids regarding living and camping in the wild. lighting fires and cooking and sleeping out.. never done camping before although i lived really rough for 6 months once in the 3rd world with no electricity no hot water and no roof over my head.. really liked it, doesnt take long to forget about modern comforts didnt miss fuck all, only thing was couldnt find rolling papers anywhere so had to take tobacco out of cigarette and mix the hash in and fill the cig back up, have to smoke it quick though to many air pockets in the cig gets burnt too quick.. apart from that i loved it, spent 6 months in the rough with no sweet things to eat apart from flat bread and onion soup even then i really liked it.. was really tough when it was cold though had to walk around with a blanket wrapped around my body all day and night...

What is that big hike in Saudi Arabia, a pilgrimage? from one mountain to another? closed to me as an infidel, but sounds really cool and spiritual, the government now supplies water and med aid if needed.

getting back to a simple life, Whitman, Muir, Abbey all talk of the necessities of having wild open place to refresh our souls with. closer to nature. it's all academic till you feel in the soul.

i remember the late 90's as the camera's started going up everywhere and nobody was alarmed
i was out chilling way way up on a ridge top looking at the canyon and city blow
and realized
it wasnt going to be very long before "out there" wasnt going to be un surveiled

it sucks

It sucks. I cringe when someone seyz : i checked our route out on google earth or satellite photos.
something dies in me. <sigh>

.

hows doing they aint so "special" any longer???

the only thing i ever see bearing down its mining or some other western funded resource extractions interest talking

It does suck CB. but i was talking virgin places never recorded
the housing track named"The Meadows" where the meadow used too be, vanished off the earth forever.
the Lewis an Clark historic trail, just follow a freeway now.

I digress, back to old ones ...

.

More than 150 years later, shipwreck is found where the Inuit said it was
The discovery of a historic vessel in the Canadian Arctic confirms Inuit lore

out here in california the indians tried to help the donner party but the settlers was to scared to eat anything they brought em



http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/9/612862 ... aid-it-was" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the long story

http://archive.archaeology.org/1203/fea ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

The discovery of Kennewick Man adds a major piece of evidence to an alternative view of the peopling of North America. It, along with other evidence, suggests that the Jōmon or related peoples were the original settlers of the New World. If correct, the conclusion upends the traditional view that the first Americans came through central Asia and walked across the Bering Land Bridge and down through an ice-free corridor into North America.

Sometime around 15,000 years ago, the new theory goes, coastal Asian groups began working their way along the shoreline of ancient Beringia—the sea was much lower then—from Japan and Kamchatka Peninsula to Alaska and beyond. This is not as crazy a journey as it sounds. As long as the voyagers were hugging the coast, they would have plenty of fresh water and food. Cold-climate coasts furnish a variety of animals, from seals and birds to fish and shellfish, as well as driftwood, to make fires. The thousands of islands and their inlets would have provided security and shelter. To show that such a sea journey was possible, in 1999 and 2000 an American named Jon Turk paddled a kayak from Japan to Alaska following the route of the presumed Jōmon migration. Anthropologists have nicknamed this route the “Kelp Highway.”

“I believe these Asian coastal migrations were the first,” said Owsley. “Then you’ve got a later wave of the people who give rise to Indians as we know them today.”

What became of those pioneers, Kennewick Man’s ancestors and companions? They were genetically swamped by much larger—and later—waves of travelers from Asia and disappeared as a physically distinct people, Owsley says. These later waves may have interbred with the first settlers, diluting their genetic legacy. A trace of their DNA still can be detected in some Native American groups, though the signal is too weak to label the Native Americans “descendants.”



the jomon period,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

country boy wrote:How did the thread title get changed with no 'edit' listed?

i requested a name change around 3 months ago, but JM didnt know how to do it , he looked everywhere for the " edit " function, someone else saw JMs post in profile and did the name change recently..

this way we can discuss other stuff on the same thread as well as pre-coloumbiam americas

is kennewick man related to via DNA to the olmecs, mayans, aztes etc !?

inconclusive as to date
still under restrictions by the authorities holding the collection each and every better test requires extensive authorization process
years spent for mabes and no's

speaking of forbidden,
its long been said that the smithsonian institute was responsible for "molding" the facts emerging during the 19th century to fit the story that was wanted to be told about the america's

with less than 2% of its collection on display its supposed they have hidden and perhaps disposed of much evidence which didnt fit the old white mans story

but i never come across any research on this as its own subject,
rather, its always an aside in other stories


anyone of you ever run across better?

^ you know ben..

i heard the same thing a few years back, that the smithsonian are hiding artifacts....

ive heard this a few times now.....

a survey of local papers through out the plain states during the 1800 shows the people digging up mounds all over and shipping what they found off to the smithsonian

and for the last several decades the smithsonian claims they recieved nothing

meanwhile!!!

their own agents went out and
working in league with the military

directed the bulldozers towards every mound they could
to gather material for the development of roads and other infrastructure

army corp of engineers
working hand in glove with the institute!

i saw the video a few years ago about this mechanism.....


Could another ancient computer lie beneath the sea? Archaeologists return to shipwreck where mysterious 2,200-year-old Antikythera mechanism was found


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... found.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

crazy!!!


(Phys.org) —Scientists are now considering the possibility that the exodus of modern man from Africa may have been earlier than 60,000 years ago as traditionally thought. Christopher Bae, a paleoanthropologist at UH Mānoa, and Wei Wang of the Guangxi Museum of Nationalities in Nanning, China, led a team of researchers that discovered two teeth in Lunadong, a cave site located in Guangxi, southern China.

Found in stratified deposits dating between 70,000 and 126,000 years ago, a time period when China was traditionally thought to have been only occupied by more archaic human species, at least one of the teeth can be comfortably assigned to modern Homo sapiens. Dating results of the Lunadong teeth, which include a right upper second molar and a left lower second molar, indicate that the molars may be as old as 126,000 years.

http://phys.org/news/2014-09-lunadong-f ... ersal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

been Re-reading stuff about the english settlers/planters who settled in jamestown virginia in the 16th century..

couldn't believe how the puritans were so devious against the native tribes..

when the chief proposed a truce with the settlers so they could sow the corn the settlers agreed but when it came time to harvest the corn the Indians were killed and the corn taken..

i mean cmon thats a bit fucking rude isnt it, ! stealing someones elses crop !!

never knew "maryland" was named after henrietta maria

never knew they had " time team usa" untill last night. was watching a doc on the first settlers in jamestown virginia...

some American guy was digging on site were the first dwellings were built and he unearthed a small metal plate which said " yames towne"

i wonder how different america would have been if the jamestown colony didnt work out and everyone died....

coz the whole legal system base of america started in jamestown !!!

i thought Europe, the old world, was where our legal system was derived from? guess i don't know much about Jamestown ...

they way i read it
it was some rather scummy people that was fleeing europe

Intrinsic wrote:i thought Europe, the old world, was where our legal system was derived from? guess i don't know much about Jamestown ...

yeah it is..

but it was the jamestown colonists who applied the english laws but i was just pondering on the affects on America overall if the colonists all died and jamestown was abandoned completely..

the colony in maryland might not have even happened if the jamestown colonist perished which they nearly did if it wasnt for the natives who helped them out every now and again..

bentech wrote:they way i read it
it was some rather scummy people that was fleeing europe

some of the colonists were listed as " gentlemen" meaning that they couldn't do hard labour and knew fuck all about farming methods, these "gentlemen" were just the second or third children of English noblemen who inherited nothing as it was all left to the first male child. so they went out there to become rich, thats why it nearly failed coz they were so unprepared for it all...

the rest of them were settlers or planters who worked for the virginia company with various trades such as carpentry, well digger and so on..

they ended up cannibalizing in Jamestown too after they finished off all the rats and the dogs..

you know
i knew that part

some how
it never really sank in

english got a way
of making that seem

anti climatic

time team special America's Birthplace (Jamestown, USA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohfAx4a-Ijo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Virginia Dare was the name of the first English baby born in the New World in 1587 on Roanoke colony were the colonists mysteriously disappeared, if current evidence is correct they left because of drought and probably ended up assimilating with local indian tribes such as the lumbeee, which means little Virginia grew up and married an injun.

just saying !!

the indian were good people

once we accepted them and their way
they were downright christian

Here's a bit of 'forbidden' archeology for ya'll:
http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Anci ... ompeii.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i cant even barely read that

homosapied found in china 70 thousands years ago!


thats so huge!!!!

you think they were walking barefoot?!?!?
you think they didnt know how to build boats??!?!!?

boats that could cross oceans?

were digging up all this relics
less than 20 thousand years old at most

what did culture build 50 thousand years ago?

i mean seriously
they had the great wide open to build it on

bentech wrote:i cant even barely read that
...

when did that ever stop ya ?

Maybe others will appreciate graffiti from Pompey...lots of poop and fucking...
Fits the thread name nicely

III.5.3 (on the wall in the street); 8898: Theophilus, don’t perform oral sex on girls against the city wall like a dog

theo was a muff diver...

Keeping it on topic:

Stop Press - Latest News From The Excavations At Gunung Padang, The Mysterious Ancient Pyramid In Indonesia That Is Rewriting History
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Hanc ... Latest.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The archaeological establishment is scrambling to find some reason to reject and pour scorn on the extraordinary consequences of the excavations now taking place at Gunung Padang in Indonesia.

Since its first exploration by archaeologists in 1914 the site was thought to be a natural hill with 2500 year-old megalithic structures on top of it. But in 2010 geologist Dr Danny Hilman Natawidjaja (who earned his doctorate at Cal Tech) recognized this “hill” as a possible man-made pyramid and began to explore it using ground penetrating radar, seismic tomography, resistivity survey and other remote sensing techniques, as well as some direct excavations and deep core drilling.

The results were immediately intriguing (see this article I wrote in January for background: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Hanc ... zation.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) producing evidence of deeply buried man-made chambers and yielding carbon dates going back as far as 26,000 years. This was the last Ice Age when our ancestors are supposed (according to the orthodox archaeological model) to be have been nothing more than primitive hunter gatherers incapable of large-scale construction and engineering feats. Was it possible that geologist Natawidjaja was unearthing the proof of a lost advanced civilization of prehistoric antiquity? Such ideas are heresy to mainstream archaeologists and sure enough the archaeological establishment in Indonesia banded together against Dr Natawidjaja and his team, lobbied the political authorities, agitated locally and succeeded in slowing down, though not completely stopping, the further exploration of Gunung Padang.

Dr Natawidjaja fought back, doing some high-level lobbying of his own, taking the matter to the President of Indonesia himself. There were further delays to do with elections in Indonesia but just a couple of months ago, in mid-August 2014, the final obstacles were lifted and Dr Natawidjaja and his team moved back onto the Gunung Padang site with full approval to go ahead with their work, including permission to excavate the concealed chambers.

Archaeologists were furious and immediately began lobbying to get the work stopped – fortunately to no avail as preliminary excavations have produced results that prove beyond doubt that Gunung Padang in indeed a man-made pyramid of great antiquity as Dr Natawidjaja had long ago proposed. Even the relatively young layer so far excavated (the second artificial columnar rock-layer beneath the megalithic site visible on the surface) has yielded dates of 5200 BC (nearly 3000 years older than the orthodox dating for the Pyramids of Giza in Egypt) and there are firm indications from the original remote sensing and core drilling work of much older layers below. In short, it is now evident to all that the site is vastly older than the 2500 years that archaeologists had insisted upon for decades. Even the most hostile amongst them are therefore now reframing their assessment of the site and referring to it as “a gigantic terraced tomb, which was part of the biggest megalithic culture in the archipelago.”

For a flavor of the sour grapes the archaeological establishment feel towards Dr Natawidjaja and his team see this recent article from the Jakarta Post: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014 ... -site.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I asked Dr Natawidjaja for his response to the Jakarta Post article and he replied as follows:

“The article has got the story all wrong. All excavations were supervised by archeologists from Agency for Conservation and Management of Archaeological Sites (BPCB) and University of Indonesia. The excavation sites have also recently been inspected by the Director for Conservation of Archeological Sites (who is the boss of Miss Desril Shanti ), by the head of the BPCB, and by the Minister of Education and Culture himself. Afterward, they gave a press conference confirming that all excavations are good and proper. For information, the head of the National Archeological Center, which is the main office above local Archeological Centers including Bandung Archeological Center, is also a member of the National Team for Gunung Padang. The Jakarta Post article is also wrong about the funding. The Minister of Education and Culture did indeed announce in the press conference that he would allocate about Rp 3 billion for the research but it has not begun to be disbursed yet. So far, I and my team are still working willingly on our own funding with the help of the soldiers (TNI) who have been working alongside us. Of course the TNI have their own funding – but not from that Endowment Fund.”

As to the progress of the work at Gunung Padang, Dr Natawidjaja writes as follows:

“The research progress has been being great. We have excavated three more spots right on top of the megalithic site in the past couple weeks, which give more evidence and details about the buried structures. We have uncovered lots more stone artifacts from the excavations. The existence of the pyramid-like structure beneath the megalithic site is now loud and clear; even for non-specialists, it is not too difficult to understand if they come and see for themselves. We have found some kind of open hall buried by soil 5-7 meters thick; however we have not yet got into the main chamber. We are now drilling to the suspected location of the chamber (based on subsurface geophysic) in the middle of the megalithic site.”

In fairness, i must include this link to 'off-set' the previous 1:
http://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

complex stone structures back 26,000 years?!?!??!?!??


thats just plain astronomical...

they were probably build centuries before
that carbon their digging out showed up there

is this for real?

thanks cb

Pyramids are popping up all over now it seems, china, Bosnia and now Indonesia..

i am surprised one hasn't been discovered in India though.. i think India has lots of hidden gems...

Dil, if you do a bit of google-fu on the author of that article,Graham Hancock, you'll find he's a crack-pot.
That's why i included a link to r/badhistory with it.
There's so much bull-shit out there in anthropology/archaeology...

you cant have these structures without quarrys
so when you find one
nowdays

you gotta find where the stone came from!

have they found that?

country boy wrote:Dil, if you do a bit of google-fu on the author of that article,Graham Hancock, you'll find he's a crack-pot.
That's why i included a link to r/badhistory with it.
There's so much bull-shit out there in anthropology/archaeology...

yeah

i know about graeme hancock , ex fellow toker and a ex journalist for the BBC, some of his stuff on the mayans and the aztecs is really thought provoking though !!

i have watched a few of his lectures on youtube..

he wrote a book called " FINGERPRINT OF THE GODS" which sold masses worldwide,,,,, i aint read it..

cb knows

in authentic constructions in antiquity
the rocks came from hundreds of miles sometimes

the ability to do this

speaks to an industry
that could only be afforded if

taxes were being collected

in order for taxes to be collected
enough to afford the artists it would take
to build something like this

there would have had to have been civilization of hundreds of thousands

they would have left more evidence of their existance
than just a icon

where are the trash heaps
the roads?

if this is real
that stuffs still around

mabe we just dont know how to find it?

jeez
what if theres some magic cut off
of our ability to recognize organics?
we get 20 thousands back
and suddenly
we just dont know?

inforomy aside

where good with bones and teeth

but what about signs of previous progress?


im in the building trade
i notice terrain

seems to me
we built over all the old roads a long time ago

im curious
where havnt we built over yet
places our past still aint been paved over

40 grand

human art found
they mights have used brushes


http://www.nature.com/news/world-s-olde ... ve-1.16100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

im curious
where havnt we built over yet
places our past still aint been paved over

I aint telling.


Would you?

I took a girlfriend to half a dozen outstanding just cherry places. (yanno to get out in the wild alone n fuck).
did she appreciate it, Nup. she did what i did , after we broke up, she went out and shared some of those spots .. to her new found buddies: the sierra club.
Still regret that.

No sir, i ain't telling

jeez

i got a few of those myselk

rock cuts and paths that have to be a century ould at least
thta im not sharing

i am sorry for your losss

fucked what can get down with knowledge

we are on the west coast here me
its really dry
shit just kinda stays the way
the last person lfeft it

thats really not the deal most places

cb's country for instance

you cant lay a pices of wood down
and expect to find something 10 years later

least wise
anything you coulds pick up

heres big!

not only did this cable repair ship find the oldests boat every found underwater...

it found an ENTIRE stone age village!

http://cphpost.dk/news/archaeologists-m ... 10710.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and even bigger



Wolf Rites of Winter



Archaeologists digging a Bronze Age site on the Russian steppes are using evidence from language and mythology to understand a remarkable discovery

http://www.archaeology.org/issues/102-1 ... bronze-age" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Intrinsic wrote:... Nup. she did what i did , after we broke up, she went out and shared some of those spots .. to her new found buddies: the sierra club. ...

Sounds like my experience with The Nature Conservancy.
Ya know if ya donate 'special' land, they can still sell it to 'protect' other more 'special' places?

just look at this!

iron age, wood hafted flint knife found in denmark
at least 3 thousand years old
http://cphpost.dk/news/rare-bronze-age- ... 11165.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is a picture of pre-inka stone-work:

once you realize that the 4 major distinct variation in south american stone work represent centuries at least of time between different cultures your mind is simply blown

a little primer regarding libya before and after nato bombing


Libya: From Africa’s Richest State Under Gaddafi, to Failed State After NATO Intervention



http://www.myplanetganja.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=10107" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What does that(^^^) have to do with archeology?

you brought up the subject to discredit an author who was talking about archeology,
you blew him off because of articles titles he had concerning those two countries

So it has nothing to do with archeology and everything to do with your shit-posting

you on the meth?

YOU brought them up to supposedly discredit an article about africans sailing to the americans long before clovis

just responding old man

Wrong thread, dumb-ass.
Meth? I'd have 'guessed' you were on pills and screw-top wine

damn,
that was space wasnt it?!?!?!

duh
heh

they always talk about the guns the spanish brought to the new world as being the deciding factor in defeating the locals

but thats just not the case
the bow and arrow were FAR more accurate than any firearms at the time

no
it was the horses and dogs and armour
thats what did it

remember when the sea was a big mystery?
all those ships sunk and gone, who knows where... i still remember the feeling back when the titantic had not been found


On July 15, 1942, Nazi submarine U-576 attacked a convoy of 19 merchant vessels under U.S. Navy escort. The ships were carrying supplies related to the war effort from Norfolk, Va., to Key West, Fla., according to information provided by NOAA.

The German sub sank the freighter Bluefields and damaged two other ships before being sunk by U.S. Navy Kingfisher aircraft.

....

The wreck of the U-576 is just 240 yards from the wreck of the Bluefields. The two were found as part of a survey of WWII vessels off the North Carolina coast carried out by NOAA and the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management.

“This is not just the discovery of a single shipwreck,” Joe Hoyt, a NOAA sanctuary scientist and chief scientist for the expedition, said in the release. “We have discovered an important battle site that is part of the Battle of the Atlantic. These two ships rest only a few hundred yards apart and together help us interpret and share their forgotten stories.”

NOAA said the site is considered a maritime grave for the 45 crew members of the submarine. There were four Allied casualties in the fighting, but none on the Bluefields.

Both wrecks are protected under international law.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/2 ... ps=gravity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:they always talk about the guns the spanish brought to the new world as being the deciding factor in defeating the locals

but thats just not the case
the bow and arrow were FAR more accurate than any firearms at the time

no
it was the horses and dogs and armour
thats what did it

yeah its true the horses and the man eating armoured dogs scared the natives.. the maya had dogs to but they were Chihuahuas and were kept to be eaten..

luckily for the Spanish other tribes really hated the maya and were in constant battles with them before the conquistadors arrived, so the natives fought with the spanish against the maya too which was good for the spanish as they could really take advantage of local knowledge....

turns out the mayans were real cunts to other tribes and routinely captured their menfolk.....

the early muskets (harquebuses) the spanish used were really slow to load heavy, and firing one is a complicated process involving the use of a wick which must be kept lit, the local archers could easily fire off 4 or 5 arrows before the Spanish reloaded and fired back.. the harquebuses just made a terrifying noise like thunder which really scared the natives plus the Spanish had lances, swords, armour...

as always
when an empire is expanding it creates enemies in the territories its assimilating
folks who invariable would prefer to return to truely savage existances rather than just pay some tax

and thus are willing to assist outsiders in decimating the society they are dependant on
out of a false belief that their own tribe will regain some lost glory time afterwords

fail

ya, the conquistador had alot more metal.
every see a macuahuitl?
those things were deadly,
but would just shatter on metal armour

but they could take a head off if there was an opening
hell
cortez own journals state he watched a horse decapitated with one

ya the indians figured the rifles were just magic mostly
big noise but rarely an injury

Tepoztopilli were rad too,
think of a spear with razors set in its top section

the last genuine aztec examples of these weapons were lost in a fire which took out part of a museum in spain in 1884

dill786 wrote: yeah its true the horses and the man eating armoured dogs scared the natives.. the maya had dogs to but they were Chihuahuas and were kept to be eaten..

luckily for the Spanish other tribes really hated the maya and were in constant battles with them before the conquistadors arrived, so the natives fought with the spanish against the maya too which was good for the spanish as they could really take advantage of local knowledge....

turns out the mayans were real cunts to other tribes and routinely captured their menfolk.....

The 'Maya', as in temples and pyramids, were gone WAY before the Spanish.
I think your talking about the 'triple alliance', eh?

Ben-tell me about bows and arrows, please.
When did they arrive in the 'new world' and how?
Here's a link:
http://anthropology.ua.edu/reprints/22.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And explain the whole 'artic small tool tradition' thing.
i've asked before and you didn't respond

i know the name but id have to bone up
their sites are several thousand years old i believe

they recently found and dug an underground house complex up in alaska but i dont know what era its from. probably more recent

i hadnt seen that research paper on the bow and arrow specific to the america's before
kinda dated but a good place to start

Cb .. i was talking about the Spanish colonization of the Maya officially in 1521 when Francisco de Montejo petitioned the King of Spain for the right to conquer the Yucatan.

did the mayans brace for the assault?
i wonder how well they understood what had happened to the aztec?

what was coming...

sorry dil! i was thinking of 'classic mayan civilization', i.e., the last long-count inscription was 500(?) years before.

Spanish War Dogs, Edible Dogs of the Conquistadors and Aztecs

http://elvalleinformation.wordpress.com ... -war-dogs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at christopher columbus'es genocite of native tiano's progressed
the spanish could buy chopped indian infant's in the market to feed their dogs

^ fuck man, that is just sick...

Thursday, October 23
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Rapa Nui Genes Suggest Pre-Columbian Voyage

OSLO, NORWAY—Evidence for contact between Polynesians from Easter Island and South Americans sometime before 1500 A.D. has been found in the genomes of 27 living Rapa Nui islanders, according to a report in Science. European and Native American DNA patterns were found in the modern Rapa Nui genomes. The Native American DNA patterns accounted for about eight percent of the Rapa Nui genomes, and they were broken up and scattered, suggesting that genetic recombination had been at work on the material for some time. The relatively intact sections of European genetic patterns were unevenly spread among the population. This suggests that European genes were introduced relatively recently, perhaps when explorers settled on the island in the nineteenth century. “Our studies strongly suggest that Native Americans most probably arrived [on Rapa Nui] shortly after the Polynesians,” said Erik Thorsby of the University of Oslo. But other scientists think that Pacific currents make it more likely that Polynesians sailed to South America, where they obtained sweet potatoes, chickens, and South American women before they returned home. For more on possible contacts between Polynesia and South America, see "Polynesian Chickens in Chile."

http://archive.archaeology.org/0801/topten/chicken.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/ ... sted-genes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dill786 wrote:^ fuck man, that is just sick...

I agree, selling your children for dog-food is 'sick'

aztecs were cannibals too though!!! i think maya were too

famous incident when Cortez landed there he heard of a spanish sailor being held by the aztec for a long time his name was "agular" and he could speak "Nahuatl" aztec language so they needed agular to translate, so cortez and his men busted him out with the help of other local indian tribes, agular told them that his other shipmates were eaten by the aztec and he was the last one left..

they ate a few men,
cortez ate their civilization

you see lots of central american indians around los angeles
lots of mayans

country boy wrote:

dill786 wrote:^ fuck man, that is just sick...

I agree, selling your children for dog-food is 'sick'

your such a dick

funny thing is the conquistadors were actually from small villages in spain, and they were mostly pig farmers and small allotment holders, dunno how they got so violent against the Indians though, i guess it was religious breeding....

Europeans on the whole were generally violent especially when they went overseas to settle permanently...

i watched 12 years as a slave for the first time last night, that just says it all !!!!

on the whole farmers/shepherds do make good generals..

look at

muhammed PBUH
moses
jesus
maximus ( gladiator movie)

which jesus was a general?

^ he led a handful of xtians, he was good at recruitment atleast...

the violence came straight from the vatican
the church developed its "blue water doctrine" which
allowed it to condone all manner of viles against anyone who
they had to cross and ocean to reach

in the edict that was given to the be read upon reaching the far shore
those there were "kindly" informed they were now property
and they had to do whatever the newcomers said
if they didnt
they and theirs would be subjected to all manner of evil treatment
and it would be their own fault

liscense to whatever your heart could imagine

^Yeah, the vatican, not jesus.

dill786 wrote:^ he led a handful of xtians, he was good at recruitment atleast...

lol. Yeah but they weren’t christians till after he died. Just jews hanging with god.

they wernt every christians actually,
they were followers of christ,
big difference

wernt no "christians" till romes paul the killer offed em all,
then had a waking dream and figured he could lead the movement

couple hundred years of pauls wacky anti-jesus shit commenced until finally constintine of rome decided to convert and make it the state religion

and thus,
the twisted remains of what had formerly been followers of christ
made peace with war
and the state

dill786 wrote:People on the whole were generally violent ...

i watched 12 years as a slave for the first time last night, Brad Pit is still pretty, not Fight Club pretty, but still pretty

Fixed that for ya

When the spanish came, some meso-american customs seemed like perversions of Catholicism.
Dil-do you know 'Transubstantiation'? It is LITERALLY the 'blood and flesh of Christ'.
If you don't believe that, it's a mortal sin... screws up the purpose/meaning of communion, leading to a cascade of sins.
Here's a crappy picture of a mural at Cacaxtla, showing human heads growing from a maize plant: This month's Anthropology has a great article(with a better picture), but it won't let me post:
http://www.archaeology.org/issues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you dont read anything about people
so, you mean Archaeology, not ANthropology right?

bentech wrote:you dont read anything about people

Unless it's about animals, more specifically, social insects and evolution, everything I read is about people.

bentech wrote:so, you mean Archaeology, not ANthropology right?

Yes-Archaeology, the link is to the current issue...auto-correct got me.
The article is specific to Cacaxtla, a city-state located between mayan and mexican power-centers.
The murals show both influences and an indigenous element.
The link between maize and human sacrifice and the catholic tradition of ritual cannibalism must not fit your narrative.

ya,
i mean, us evangelicals did the sacrament
but the transmografa whatever wasnt really stressed

they were to hot to get us in front of the screen watching b movies about the rapture in revelations

get their kicks scaring children motherfuckers

i am trying to google some stuff on how the Spanish took care of the horses while in transit to the new world, try to google some ship journals or some narrative on this subject but to no avail, would be interesting to know how they exercised the horses if they did at all, horses drink lots of water per day so i am curious to know how they did this animal husbandry on a ship on a long voyage......

zheng he the Chinese admiral had hundreds of horses on junks for a longer period of time than the spanish would have done so knowing how the Chinese took care of there horses on board would be interesting to compare with the spanish animal husbandry.

the chinese sailors even took giraffes back from india to china, the indians got them gifted to them by some african kings...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckdn18SAldg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:ya,
i mean, us evangelicals did the sacrament
but the transmografa whatever wasnt really stressed

they were to hot to get us in front of the screen watching b movies about the rapture in revelations

get their kicks scaring children motherfuckers

Sucks you still carry that burden.... and inflict it on everyone else.
Ya'll didn't do the 'sacrament' cause it was grape juice, eh?
But they were really into 'foot washing'?

the "burden" is watching it be perpetuated
watching children being subjected to rediculous fear
and piss poor educations

its how the keep the ranks full

we did the sacrament
we just didnt make it out to be what the catholic church does

wasnt as visceral

bentech wrote:the "burden" is watching it be perpetuated
watching children being subjected to rediculous fear
and piss poor educations

its how the keep the ranks full

we did the sacrament
we just didnt make it out to be what the catholic church does

wasnt as visceral

Your disdain for religion is very selective, relating ONLY to the particular sect you were exposed to....and jews...
It's only basis is YOUR mommy/daddy issues, Ben.
Mine comes from a 'lack of faith'.
Have you read Kierkegaard?

fyi-i went to the truck when they started speaking in tongues, i was 8.
Too weird for a baptist who didn't believe a whale could swallow Jonah.

You bash protestantism, without any concept of the evolution of christian thought and man's relationship with god.
The jews to the muslims and their personal relationship with god, without the catholic priest, which caused Luther to start the reformation(need citation).
Don't you understand, the denial of 'Transubstantiation' is a MORTAL sin?!
I'm sure ya'll talked the 'blood of CHRIST' stuff, but unless you TRULY BELIEVE the cracker and wine BECOME the literal FLESH and BLOOD of
No length of time in purgatory can save your soul

^ we need unfettered access to the secret Vatican library for conclusive evidence....

thats reminds me of the argumented used by the nuclear industry to sell their wares

"we need ALL OPTIONS on the table"
oblivious to one one implimentions of their options takes up the funds for a couple thousand other "options


your tragically wrong cb
im not focus'd on a particular "religion"

im focused on the religion that is doing the most parh

were talking 90% here

im focus'd on the worest offender who getting the most public subsidy in its efforts to fuck those most children it can get its filthy hands on

feel fee to take that personal


all the white the cross you beat in defense of the worest child abusers the world has ever know

its going down

welcome to sanity motherfucker

Neanderthals were great sailors
Last week Sail-World published a story about a 4,500-year-old Egyptian felucca being restored from a burial site. But that story pales considerably if the findings of an archaeologist, George Ferentinos of the University of Patras in Greece, are found to be true. He says that Neanderthals sailed the Mediterranean possibly hundreds of thousands of years ago, long before humans.
...
more@ http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/usa/ ... lors/94471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If Neanderthals had the cognitive ability to build boats and sail them ….
Did the migration to the new world start before homo sapiens?

we find stone tools in association with "human" remains that predate homosapien but over a millions years

its been widely believed that certain "levels of complex though"
when reached
must display themselves across a number of industries

stone tool survive alot longer than boats and their rigging

that is unless they sink in the black sea
weve found some well preserved old boats in it

stuff in the 6 thousand year old range

just imagine finding a boat 20 thousand years old

bentech wrote:thats reminds me of the argumented used by the nuclear industry to sell their wares
"we need ALL OPTIONS on the table"
oblivious to one one implimentions of their options takes up the funds for a couple thousand other "options
your tragically wrong cb
im not focus'd on a particular "religion"
im focused on the religion that is doing the most parh
were talking 90% here
im focus'd on the worest offender who getting the most public subsidy in its efforts to fuck those most children it can get its filthy hands on
feel fee to take that personal
all the white the cross you beat in defense of the worest child abusers the world has ever know
its going down
welcome to sanity motherfucker

country boy wrote:...
Without a basic knowledge of Christianity, your hatred of 1 specific group seems...I don't know the word...

country boy wrote:The word i was looking for is 'myopic'...or 'ignorant'... or 'bat-shit-crazy'...
...

listen asshole
"christianity" IS one specific group

you backpedaling and backsliden mother fuckers still line up and vote for the most noxious of the ideals your extremists put up for offer

aint no weaselin out of this you fuckin pussys

bentech wrote:listen asshole
"christianity" IS one specific group

you backpedaling and backsliden mother fuckers still line up and vote for the most noxious of the ideals your extremists put up for offer

aint no weaselin out of this you fuckin pussys

It's not all Christians. to you the monolithic pile of dogma that is the catholic church is just fine.
Only a few 'odd' protestants are 'bad' in your fucked-up mind-set, while muslims/ hindus/sikhs/etc...(but not jews, definitely not jews) get a free pass.

You're a 90 iq who shouts a lot when people disagree with them.
Go fuck yourself, 'asshole'

heh,

and while you go spit out the piss you peed in your mouth there
[lets hope]

and what "all the decent christians" believe and would do really doesnt means shit given they ketow to the monsters of the traditions and are happy to let those scumfucks rule the roost

and as to all the other you mention

well i guess youve never heard of triage
or taking the greatest threat the most seriously

cuz the scum fucks im pointing out
are responsible for the lions share of misery the globle over

and its an age old tradition with your ilk

past present and future
they got the most money and the most reach and the most arms and the most retarted ideals of morality

and the most stupid of flocks backing them up

there is NOTHING that even comes close to them and you motherfucker

cast your aspersions all you like jackass
they only sell back and home with that bitch of a granny and the dumb children you dont allow to wear shoes

your top of the pile and king of the fucks
when it comes to evil being perpetrated in the world

and
your to dishonest to even admit it

nice work jesus!

bentech wrote:heh,
and while you go spit out the piss you peed in your mouth there
[lets hope]
and what "all the decent christians" believe and would do really doesnt means shit given they ketow to the monsters of the traditions and are happy to let those scumfucks rule the roost
and as to all the other you mention
well i guess youve never heard of triage
or taking the greatest threat the most seriously
cuz the scum fucks im pointing out
are responsible for the lions share of misery the globle over
and its an age old tradition with your ilk
past present and future
they got the most money and the most reach and the most arms and the most retarted ideals of morality
and the most stupid of flocks backing them up
there is NOTHING that even comes close to them and you motherfucker
case aspersions all you like jackass
your top of the pile and king of the fucks
when it comes to evil being perpetrated in the world

Then you babble, expecting folks to read drek
I'm sure Freud would have a a task straightening out the 'peed in your mouth' stuff'.
'Poopy', say it, Ben.
Give you a vicarious thrill?

not like your sex freaks

i get a simply and quiet satisfactions from knowing im the good guy and out confronting evil
there is no hardon that goes with that

probably why you pan the moral excercise

bentech wrote:not like your sex freaks
i get a simply and quiet satisfactions from knowing im the good guy and out confronting evil
there is no hardon that goes with that
probably why you pan the moral excercise

bentech wrote:in great news!
had a story to share
the kids are all 5 to 15 years old
nieces and nephews
me and my uncle stand out back and smoke it up
the older kids now
the parents dragged the lot of em off to see this trash religious movie about the rapture and end times
i remember my first exposure to that shit at about 8 years old
we were standing out back
and listening to the nieces and nephews
talking about watching the movie afterwards
they seem to unvbersally laugh it off
i was proud
that shits going down
soon
it will be an abuse you can prosecute their parents for inflictiing
but at least for now
that shit isnt selling to them

You are the abuser, Ben.
Hanging out with those 'bad' relatives/friends makes you BAD too.
Ask the kids, your 1 of 'them', bro....

fyi-I don't drink poison or handle snakes, much less, speak in tongues and get possessed with the holy spirit.
Or hide the tv when the preacher comes over...
You keep pushing that whole 'blood of christ' stuff and it's getting on my last nerve.
I'd put my dogs on ya if you were shilling this shit in my yard, with your watch-towers, on a Saturday morning

jeez,
you couldnt find your ass if they handed it too you!


you know i dont "hang" with them
and the crazies are all planning an excorcism to bring me around
heh

it doesnt matter a bit that left to your own device
your a much more decent person than the extreme examples

the extreme examples are the ones writing policy and dictate
and your conforming to their word and the support of their regiment

your like the "decent" german in the SS
who didnt have anything against jews

nevermind his day job

oh just curious,
couple days ago
you were jumping on me for not taking the catholic traditions to heart
and nobody takes the "blood of christ" shit more serious than them

what are you refering to by that phrase?

where do i "blood of christ" it up?

riddle us this motherfucker!



November 03, 2014

The Curious Silence of the West

Libya Falls Into the Abyss

by PATRICK COCKBURN

Remember the time when Libya was being held up by the American, British, French and Qatari governments as a striking example of benign and successful foreign intervention? It is worth looking again at film of David Cameron grandstanding as liberator in Benghazi in September 2011 as he applauds the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi and tells the crowd that “your city was an example to the world as you threw off a dictator and chose freedom”.

Mr Cameron has not been back to Benghazi, nor is he likely to do so as warring militias reduce Libya to primal anarchy in which nobody is safe. The majority of Libyans are demonstrably worse off today than they were under Gaddafi, notwithstanding his personality cult and authoritarian rule. The slaughter is getting worse by the month and is engulfing the entire country.

“Your friends in Britain and France will stand with you as you build your democracy,” pledged Mr Cameron to the people of Benghazi. Three years later, they are words he evidently wants to forget, since there was almost no reference to Libya, the one military intervention he had previously ordered, when he spoke in the House of Commons justifying British airstrikes against Islamic State (Isis) in Iraq.

The foreign media has largely ceased to cover Libya because it rightly believes it is too dangerous for journalists to go there. Yet I remember a moment in the early summer of 2011 in the frontline south of Benghazi when there were more reporters and camera crews present than there were rebel militiamen. Cameramen used to ask fellow foreign journalists to move aside when they were filming so that this did not become too apparent. In reality, Gaddafi’s overthrow was very much Nato’s doing, with Libyan militiamen mopping up.

Human rights organisations have had a much better record in Libya than the media since the start of the uprising in 2011. They discovered that there was no evidence for several highly publicised atrocities supposedly carried out by Gaddafi’s forces that were used to fuel popular support for the air war in the US, Britain, France and elsewhere. These included the story of the mass rape of women by Gaddafi’s troops that Amnesty International exposed as being without foundation. The uniformed bodies of government soldiers were described by rebel spokesmen as being men shot because they were about to defect to the opposition. Video film showed the soldiers still alive as rebel prisoners so it must have been the rebels who had executed them and put the blame on the government.

Foreign governments and media alike have good reason to forget what they said and did in Libya in 2011, because the aftermath of the overthrow of Gaddafi has been so appalling. The extent of the calamity is made clear by two reports on the present state of the country, one by Amnesty International called “Libya: Rule of the gun – abductions, torture and other militia abuses in western Libya” and a second by Human Rights Watch, focusing on the east of the country, called “Libya: Assassinations May Be Crimes Against Humanity”.

The latter is a gruesome but fascinating account of what people in Benghazi call “Black Friday,” which occurred on 19 September this year, the most deadly day in a three-day assassination spree in the city, in which “the dead included two young activists, members of the security services, an outspoken cleric and five other civilians”. The activists were Tawfiq Bensaud and Sami Elkawafi, two men aged 18 and 19, who had campaigned and demonstrated against militia violence. Among others who died was a prominent cleric, Seikh Nabil Sati, who was murdered, as well as a young man, Abdulrahman al-Mogherbi, who was kidnapped at the cleric’s funeral and later found dead.



Their murders brought to 250 the number of victims of politically motivated killings this year in Benghazi and Derna, the major cities in eastern Libya. This is not counting the far larger number who have died in military operations between the different militias or the battles that have raged in and around Tripoli.

Without the rest of the world paying much attention, a civil war has been raging in western Libya since 13 July between the Libya Dawn coalition of militias, originally based in Misrata, and another militia group centred on Zintan. A largely separate civil war between the forces of retired General Khalifa Haftar and the Shura Council of Benghazi Revolutionaries is being fought out in the city. Government has collapsed. Amnesty says that torture has become commonplace with victims being “beaten with plastic tubes, sticks, metal bars or cables, given electric shocks, suspended in stress positions for hours, kept blindfolded and shackled for days.”

It is easy enough to deride the neo-imperial posturing of David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, or to describe the abyss into which Libya has fallen since 2011. The people whom that intervention propelled into power have reduced a country that had been peaceful for more than half a century to a level of violence that is beginning to approach that of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Whatever Western intentions, the result has been a disaster. In Libya, as in Syria today, Western intervention was supposedly in support of democracy, but was conducted in alliance with the Sunni absolute monarchies of the Gulf who had no such aims.

The temptation is to say that foreign intervention invariably brings catastrophe to the country intervened in. But this is not quite true: US air strikes in defence of the Syrian Kurds at Kobani and the Iraqi Kurds in their capital Erbil are justifiable and prevent massacres by Isis. But the drawback is that foreign intervention is always in the interests of the country intervening. These may, for a time, coincide with the real interests of the country where the foreign intervention is taking place, but this seldom lasts very long.

This is the lesson of recent foreign interventions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria. Most Afghans wanted the Taliban out in 2001 but they did not want the warlords back, something the Americans found acceptable. The US would fight the Taliban, but not confront the movement’s sponsors in Pakistan, thereby dooming Afghanistan to endless war. In Iraq in 2003, many Iraqis welcomed the US-led invasion because they wanted the end of Saddam Hussein’s rule, but they did not want a foreign occupation. The Americans did not want the fall of Saddam to benefit Iran, so they needed to occupy the country and install their own nominees in power.

In all three cases cited above, the West intervened in somebody else’s civil war and tried to dictate who won. There was a pretence that the Taliban, Saddam, Gaddafi or Assad were demonically evil and without any true supporters. This foreign support may give victory to one party in a civil war, as in Libya, which they could not win by relying on their own strength. In Iraq, the beleaguered Sunni could not fight a US-backed Shia government so it needed to bring in al-Qaeda. Thus the conditions were created that eventually produced Isis.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/11/03/ ... the-abyss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

knapping
the art of breaking rocks to produce sharp edges and useful tools

homosapein's the last of severals lines of nature trying to evolve something out of things out way

we aint even 200 thousand years old
but people like us have been been making tools out of busted ks for more than a millions years

they did lots or rad shit,
this is just one

the science of examining these records of human interaction withe enviroment is growing



when we look at these stone objects tdoway

we can date them no only ro cultural aproximations
but even to to individuals
teachers
who taught a certain way
of doing it
and it was passed down
for a certain period of time

the way the made these things left telltales we cab can note today in time and space

fucking crazy


when an old stone knife got dull

you could address it

chip a new edge on its profile


and in doing so

you left your signature

lot of examples of this





there is so much to learn
the enemies of preservations
really stand out

the genetic analysis of things is finding
that we as homosapien
got the hell out of african
alot sooner,
err
further back
than was previously assumed


aside from neanderthal

is their evidence of other human variations
ouside the continent of africa?

still wading my way throught your pdf old man

but it occurst to me
the stone tools i most appreciate
found off our local channel islands

really fall into line with the small tool tradtions
used to describe artic folks in north america

the traditionsajnd artifacts of f north eastern asia are still a huge
issue

but that small tool tradition
is quire arguable evident
10 thousand heard ago

right off the shore in los angeles

the russian moose!!!

wasnt even known till 3 years ago when it was noticed in images taken from high altitude

5 to 6 thousand years old

so russian simply refers to it geographic placement these days

there was no russia in that time
hell
there was hardly a civilization anywhere on the map!

white people hadnt yet learned to wash their hands after taking a shit yet

jeez,
theyd just baredly learned to not eat the stuff

bentech wrote:still wading my way throught your pdf old man

but it occurst to me
the stone tools i most appreciate
found off our local channel islands

really fall into line with the small tool tradtions
used to describe artic folks in north america

the traditionsajnd artifacts of f north eastern asia are still a huge
issue

but that small tool tradition
is quire arguable evident
10 thousand heard ago

right off the shore in los angeles

You got a link to those channel island arrow tips?
Plenty of atl-atls but...
The bow is amazing technology and when it 'hit', spread rapidly.
I can't find evidence for it before 1 AD in the US and below.

New archaeological evidence reveals California’s Channel Islands as North America’s earliest seafaring economy

http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/03/c ... g-economy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


that little crecent shapped one has really intrigued me for the years since i ran across its picture

I didn't see 'bow and arrow' mentioned in that article.

though we were talking stone points?

got an old friend
pot hunter
he should be in prison

takes me out this once
to look for arrowheads

new experience for me
someone who knows

we hike for 20 minutes
get up on this flat spot just above the valley
and there were flakes everywhere

each year
new rain exposes them
they really were around spots overlooking the valley
where you sit and keep and eye on the valley
while you were doing your work

i found a piece of painted pottery that day
just big enough to show some design
he was amazed
had brought home stone knives from that place
but never found anything that amazing

this was colorado
but he told me the design was clearly old pwebulo


given what ive read
from the link youve given

it would seem that "bow and arrow" didnt exist at the time
whoever was living on our channel islands
was paking stone tools

from what im reading
the small tool culture existed for a good thousand years or two
before the bow was introduced

After a rain, when the fields were freshly plowed, I'd find several, cause 'rocks' were rare.

That pfd is from 'NORTH AMERICAN ARCHAEOLOGIST'.
You can have the set for $1k.
http://baywood.com/journals/JournalBuyi ... =0197-6931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

he taught me how to walk facing the sun and scan the ground for reflections that jump out
the stones stand out that way

there were piles of flakes,
remenants of working stone
off to the side here and there

folks out looking would see a glint
realize it was just some chip
pick them up and put them out of the way

an analysis of those discarded chips
would really show from how far away the stone material they were working came from

cashe's left by prehistoric people are fould often
one of the things they find
is these big chunks of rock that could be broken up to make dozens of tools
they hiked these things over hundreds of miles often

valuable resource

The variety of stone points found on-site shows occupation that goes back through the Paleoindian period to some 11,000 years ago. At a site called Midway Valley, DRI researchers found a quarry for chalcedony and obsidian that was used for thousands of years. And in Fortymile Canyon there are petroglyphs that some interpret as evidence of vision quests.

http://www.archaeology.org/issues/152-1 ... #art_page3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

its always nice to see the ideas conservatives hold dear SMASHED to pieces

this has alot to say





How Does the Environment Shape the Development of Culture?

CAMBRIDGE, ENGLAND—Kathelinjne Koops of the University of Cambridge has written an opinion piece in Biology Letters that challenges the adage that necessity is the mother of invention. She and her colleagues have reviewed studies on tool use among chimpanzees, orangutans, and bearded capuchins, and have found that their tool use did not increase during times of scarcity. Rather, primates use tools when there are calorie-rich, hard-to-reach foods, such as nuts and honey, available in the environment. Understanding the development of tool use in our primate cousins could provide insights into the development of human culture and technology, Koops explained. “The local environment may exert a powerful influence on culture and may, in fact, be critical for understanding the occurrence and distribution of material culture,” she told Science Daily.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 205906.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh and i just finished reading that pdf on the bow of arrow cb linked to

facinating article,
albeit dated

but still
its introduces havoc to corrently accepted ideas about the population of north america currently believed on the basis of wide swath thinking

doesnt address south america entirely
but again
its a dated work

great article though

http://anthropology.ua.edu/reprints/22.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

OMSK, RUSSIA—A well-preserved suit of bone armor estimated to be between 3,900 and 3,500 years old has been unearthed near the Irtysh River in western Siberia, a region where members of the Krotov culture lived. The armor, however, resembles that of the Samus-Seyminskaya culture, which is located in the Altai Mountains. The armor may have been a gift, obtained through trade, or was perhaps the spoils of war. “It is unique first of all because such armor was highly valued. It was more precious than life, because it saved life. Secondly, it was found in a settlement, and this has never happened before,” contract archaeologist Boris Konikov told The Siberian Times. Scientists are carefully extracting the bones from a block of soil in the lab. “Such armor needs constant care. At the moment we can only fantasize—who dug it into the ground and for what purpose? Was it some ritual or sacrifice? We do not know yet,” added Yury Gerasimov of the Omsk branch of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography.


http://www.archaeology.org/news/2495-14 ... bone-armor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:its always nice to see the ideas conservatives hold dear SMASHED to pieces

this has alot to say





How Does the Environment Shape the Development of Culture?

CAMBRIDGE, ENGLAND—Kathelinjne Koops of the University of Cambridge has written an opinion piece in Biology Letters that challenges the adage that necessity is the mother of invention. She and her colleagues have reviewed studies on tool use among chimpanzees, orangutans, and bearded capuchins, and have found that their tool use did not increase during times of scarcity. Rather, primates use tools when there are calorie-rich, hard-to-reach foods, such as nuts and honey, available in the environment. Understanding the development of tool use in our primate cousins could provide insights into the development of human culture and technology, Koops explained. “The local environment may exert a powerful influence on culture and may, in fact, be critical for understanding the occurrence and distribution of material culture,” she told Science Daily.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 205906.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just monkeys?!
Why not sea-otters, dolphins, and crows too?
Notice how she throws out the usual 'may' and 'could'?

um, cuz she only studied monkeys for the research paper???

'She' did no original research, merely 'reviewed studies'.

ya, thats called RESEARCH
like going through the draws full of old specimens at the museum

It is an 'opinion piece', bro.
There's no peer review.
Here's a link:
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... licy.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting read... That Muslim sailors could have reached the American continent in the 12th century, is it possible ? i think YES personally..

Before Columbus: Erdogan says Muslims 'discovered America,' eyes mosque in Cuba

http://rt.com/news/205895-islam-america-erdogan-cuba/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are many documents, treaties, legislation and resolutions that were passed between 1600s and 1800s that show that Muslims were in fact here and were very active in the comunities in which they lived. Treaties such as Peace and Friendship that was signed on the Delaware River in the year 1787 bear the signatures of Abdel-Khak and Muhammad Ibn Abdullah. This treaty details our continued right to exist as a community in the areas of commerce, maritime shipping, current form of government at that time which was in accordance with Islam.

There you have a written proof of Muslims in America.

new one for me
this thing is rad

and old


Secrets of Siberian lake Tere-Khol (8 photos)

http://hybridtechcar.com/secrets-siberi ... -8-photos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wow buddists in siberia

here,
AND at 1300 meters in elevation

New World genocide:

Massacre at Sacred Ridge sparks debate about prehistoric genocide

Attackers with a deadly plan climbed a knoll to a Pueblo village called Sacred Ridge around 1,200 years ago. What happened next was anything but sacred.

Excavations at an ancient Pueblo site uncovered crushed skulls (one shown) and other bones from at least 35 victims. At least 35 people, roughly half of those living in the village, were brutalized, killed and sliced into thousands of small pieces. Fellow Pueblo from nearby villages battered victims’ feet hard enough to break toes and fracture heels. Blows delivered with blunt weapons crushed the faces and heads of men, women and children. Scalps, and possibly eyes and ears, were removed, perhaps as trophies.

Wielders of sharp stone implements chopped up victims’ bodies in at least four Sacred Ridge structures. Attackers removed the roof of a large house and threw in heaps of human body parts, some of which had been fished from burning hearths. Several village dogs met the same fate.

“This extreme level of violence came as a complete surprise,” says archaeologist James Potter, who directed the excavations that uncovered this murder at Sacred Ridge. “I was blown away from the start at how many human remains we were finding.”

As Potter and his colleagues tried to grasp what they had found, a question struck them: Why did the Pueblo, whose villages dotted southwestern Colorado’s 4-kilometer-long Ridges Basin, execute such a brutal, over-the-top massacre?

During a violent encounter roughly 1,200 years ago, Pueblo people from settlements elsewhere in the Ridges Basin area (brown dots) attacked Sacred Ridge sites (red dots).After leading an analysis of Sacred Ridge’s mutilated mass of bones, bioarchaeologist Ann Stodder of the Field Museum in Chicago has a controversial answer: genocide. An ethnically distinct Pueblo clan living at Sacred Ridge maintained tenuous authority over at least two other ethnic groups inhabiting Ridges Basin, Stodder contends. Dire food shortages and anger toward better-provisioned Sacred Ridge elites motivated a raid aimed at destroying an entire lineage and its collective identity, she proposed in April in Albuquerque at a meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists.

Stodder’s proposal has raised eyebrows and hackles among some scientists who study ancient Pueblo people and the prehistory of violence. Many regard genocide as a word that implies an effort to exterminate a whole race, religion or ethnic population. Save the g-word for the Nazi slaughter of Jews and other cases in which mind-numbingly mammoth numbers of people perished, these scientists argue.

Potter, of SWCA Environmental Consultants’ branch in Broomfield, Colo., calls what happened at Sacred Ridge a one-off outburst of “ethnocide,” not a village-to-village genocidal campaign. Some researchers suspect that attackers attributed misfortunes in home communities to witchcraft practiced at Sacred Ridge; physically obliterating victims would drive evil spirits out and make bodies useless to malevolent forces. Others contend that the intentions of those who attacked Sacred Ridge are difficult to divine from piles of smashed bones.

“Archaeologists and anthropologists will be thinking about this site for a long time,” says Stodder.
Melting pot meltdown

Potter didn’t expect to unearth a slaughter at Sacred Ridge. His effort was part of a federally funded project to document archaeological sites in a larger area of the Four Corners region scheduled to be inundated by a new dam.

Human remains found during a Sacred Ridge excavation represent more than 30 individuals across all age ranges. Remains of infants and children suggest that the attack wasn't warfare-related. Pueblo settlements first appeared in the region around the year 700. Up to that point, mobile hunter-gatherers who are considered to be Pueblo precursors had inhabited the territory for more than 1,700 years. From about 775 to 825, according to radiocarbon and tree-ring dating estimates, Pueblo people resided at Sacred Ridge and more than 30 other Ridges Basin settlements excavated by Potter’s team. A few cases of violent deaths have turned up at other basin villages, but nothing that approached a massacre.

Similarly, early Pueblo sites elsewhere in the Four Corners region have revealed a few incidents of killing and possible cannibalism mainly involving just handfuls of people. And a cave in southeastern Utah yielded bones from at least 61 pre-Pueblo individuals who were beaten, mutilated and stabbed around 1,500 years ago, but the predominance of adult males among those victims suggests a warfare-related attack.

Though violent raids on Pueblo sites increased in size and frequency from 900 to 1300 (SN: 9/9/00, p. 164), with victims including men, women and children, Sacred Ridge was built during a relatively calm period and therefore seemed an unlikely venue for violence.

Its residents wielded some type of ritual and economic power that, at least for a short time, seemed to result in smooth relations among diverse Ridges Basin villagers. Sacred Ridge encompassed 11.6 acres, considerably more ground than nearby settlements. In addition to 22 underground pit houses, public structures included a domed circular building, a two-story tower and a palisade.

Digs led by Potter in two Sacred Ridge pit houses in 2003 and 2004 uncovered clusters of broken and burned human bones. Chemical analyses identified blood residue on an ax, a jar and other artifacts found near the remains. The next year, thousands more pieces of bone turned up in another pit house that showed signs of having had its roof removed. Potter’s team recovered a total of 14,882 human bone fragments from people of all ages.

This reconstruction shows what the interior of a pit house at Sacred Ridge might have looked like before the attack. Scrutiny of strontium isotopes in teeth from 28 individuals at Sacred Ridge suggested that they grew up eating foods from the immediate vicinity and so were not newcomers to the area. Strontium signatures of these villagers matched those previously recorded for plants, animals and rocks in and around the basin.

Distinctive house styles, pottery designs, burial practices, tooth shapes and skull features demarcate at least three ethnic groups in the basin at that time, including one at Sacred Ridge, according to Potter.

“Water and other resources attracted growing numbers of people from different ethnic groups to Ridges Basin, where they lived in close proximity for the first time,” he speculates.

Increasingly cold and dry weather, dwindling game herds and crop yields, and surpluses of stored deer and elk meat confined to Sacred Ridge inflamed ethnic tensions, Potter posits. The regional melting pot boiled over when members of one group eliminated the Sacred Ridge clan in a ferocious attack, he suggests.

Within 15 years of the massacre, Pueblo people abandoned Ridges Basin. Later Pueblo settlements, known for stone and adobe dwellings built along cliff walls, appeared elsewhere in the Four Corners region.
Jigsaw horror

Much of that scenario rings true to Stodder. From her perspective, though, Sacred Ridge offers a chilling example of prehistoric genocide. Although far greater numbers of people died in Nazi death camps and on Cambodia’s killing fields, attackers at Sacred Ridge shared much the same devotion to eliminating a population seen as a threat, Stodder proposed at the April meeting.

Attackers appear to have dumped mutilated and burned body parts into a pit house at Sacred Ridge. This figure shows where bone fragments (red) were found. That argument doesn’t sway Potter. One Ridges Basin ethnic group fell on exceedingly hard times and killed culturally different villagers seen as too powerful, he and archaeologist Jason Chuipka of Woods Canyon Archaeological Consultants in Yellow Jacket, Colo., propose in an upcoming Journal of Anthropological Archaeology. Ethnic violence at Sacred Ridge was tragic but fell well short of large-scale genocides inflicted by modern societies, in Potter’s view.

Other researchers have leveled that same criticism at suggestions that genocide occurred at two European sites, both more than 7,000 years old — one where 67 individuals with violent injuries had been dumped in a trench and another that contained two pits with a total of 38 bodies displaying numerous skull fractures.

For nearly a year after Potter’s excavations concluded in 2005, Stodder and colleagues reassembled and analyzed bone fragments from the Pueblo site. Her team managed to put two or more adjoining parts back together for 40 percent of what had been excavated.

“It was like doing 15 jigsaw puzzles that could all be part of a larger puzzle,” Stodder recalls.

So many cuts covered bones that researchers counted these tool markings in groups. Knots of marks clustered at joints, a sign that body parts had been systematically detached. In many cases, charring appeared on some parts of reassembled skeletal sections but not others. Attackers may have thrown huge numbers of body parts into hearths, managing to burn a portion of them, Stodder says.

Bone fragments recovered from Sacred Ridge (including this hip bone) show signs of tool marks, suggesting bodies were mutilated. Scrape marks, chop marks, crushed areas and fractures also appeared on many bones. Fractures of the skull base in at least two individuals resembled an execution method used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, an organization that killed roughly 2 million perceived enemies of Communist rulers more than 30 years ago. Kneeling prisoners received deadly blows to the back of the head, close to the brain stem and spinal cord. Extensive damage observed on reassembled foot bones from Sacred Ridge indicated that attackers used clubs of some kind to bash victims’ heels and toes. Soles of prostrate villagers’ feet were then beaten hard enough to crush and peel underlying bone.

Whatever label one applies to it, the methodical destruction of an extended family with an unsure grip on power “doesn’t fit any modern category of social behavior,” Stodder says.
Witches of Ridges Basin

Assessing the cavalcade of carnage meted out at Sacred Ridge, anthropologist Debra Martin of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas thinks of witches. Witch accusations and killings have long occurred in societies throughout the world, Martin says. Hopi, Zuni and other Pueblo groups have for centuries killed people regarded as malevolent sorcerers controlled by unseen, wicked forces. Children are viewed as particularly easy prey for evil spirits seeking bodies and souls to commandeer for nefarious purposes.

These skeletons document where marks were observed on various individuals. Procedures for destroying witches include mutilating, cutting up and burning bodies so evil spirits have no human vessels to inhabit. Victims end up looking much like those found by Potter’s team.

“Being from Vegas, I put my money on witch execution at Sacred Ridge,” Martin says. Food shortages and other mounting troubles could have sparked witch accusations against an entire extended family or clan, she proposes.

Martin’s account sounds plausible to anthropologist Richard Chacon of Winthrop University in Rock Hill, S.C. Chacon has conducted fieldwork among several Native American societies in South America, including Achuar blowgun hunters in Ecuador and Yora bow-and-arrow hunters in Peru. Villagers in these societies often attribute epidemics and other community misfortunes to witchcraft practiced by shamans and others living in neighboring villages, Chacon says. Warriors who kill alleged witches are considered heroes for having performed a vital public service, he notes. That includes the torture and killing of children accused of sorcery.

Tool marks appear on a variety of bone types. This graph shows the percent of selected fragments with marks. Bones from Sacred Ridge display many attributes of witch executions, acknowledges Potter. But, he holds, the 35 or more victims at Sacred Ridge “would be an unprecedented number of people found guilty and executed at one time as a result of witchcraft accusations.” Historical accounts of Zuni and other Pueblo witch trials typically describe one accused sorcerer, and in rare cases several.

More broadly, Chacon says, research at Sacred Ridge counters claims by some scholars that prehistoric Pueblo people never fought, instead living in harmony with nature and each other. “That stereotype robs Native American peoples of their humanity,” he says. “Every group I’ve worked with has a long history of violent conflicts.”
Grave doubts

Attacks by one group on a culturally, religiously or ethnically different group undoubtedly occurred in ancient times, in all parts of the world, remarks archaeologist Kristin Kuckelman of Crow Canyon Archaeological Center in Cortez, Colo. Kuckelman’s excavations suggest that devastating attacks and possible cannibalism occurred around 1270 at three large Pueblo villages in the Four Corners region. A desire to eliminate and intimidate competitors for scarce food apparently motivated those attacks, she says.

But reasons for the massacre at Sacred Ridge remain puzzling, she cautions. Burned remains of a few people who met violent ends around the same time at three other Ridges Basin villages have been uncovered, so retaliatory raids by members of hostile villages may have culminated in extreme brutality at Sacred Ridge, Kuckelman suggests.

Retribution for alleged witchcraft could explain the literal tearing apart of victims, yet there’s no archaeological evidence of pre-Columbian Pueblo sorcery. “It is not at all clear that Pueblo Indian culture included witchcraft belief before European contact,” says Kuckelman.

Uncertainty also clouds Stodder’s genocide label, comments forensic anthropologist Debra Komar of Liverpool John Moores University in England. A single mass grave, including the one at Sacred Ridge, “could never be considered proof of the larger intent of the perpetrators.”

In a 2008 paper, Komar cited genocide as one potential explanation of Pueblo violence from 900 to 1300. That period displayed social and behavioral hallmarks of modern genocide documented by Komar a decade ago in Bosnia and six years ago in Iraq: a concentration of previously dispersed groups in a relatively small area, mass graves, mutilation of bodies, killing of women, children and the elderly — and numerous large-scale attacks that eradicated villages.

“Times of tremendous conflict occurred throughout the human past,” says Richard Wilshusen, an independent archaeologist and Pueblo researcher in Boulder, Colo. “Reasons for those conflicts are so hard to untangle.” Attention-grabbing violence at Sacred Ridge shouldn’t distract from the vibrant spread of Pueblo villages and cultures soon afterward, he holds. More than 10,000 people inhabited the Four Corners region within a century of the slaughter, heralding a slew of linguistically diverse Pueblo communities by the 16th century.

“Those Pueblo people have much to teach us about how large, sedentary, probably multiethnic communities come together and are held together,” Wilshusen emphasizes.

The ancient Pueblo villages at Ridges Basin will soon be inundated together under a slowly rising tide of dam water. In a couple of years, Sacred Ridge will lie in a liquid, man-made grave. Human remains from the site have been ceremonially reburied in a nearby protected area by Pueblo tribal representatives.

Voluminous skeletal data gathered by Stodder’s team will go to a federal archive for examination by other interested researchers. In an oddly fitting turn of events, victims of the mysterious massacre at Sacred Ridge will have a long scientific afterlife.

Author: Bruce Bower | Source: Science News [October 22, 2010]

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot. ... FXuj1PF8z0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

calling this "pre" historic is a marketting trick
to sell this researchers story to an evangelical audience whos job it is to excuse modern violence as inherent to the evolution of humans

a speculation which is rapidly losing ground in the face of modern research

well i guess its not a trick
but its certainly a cross marketting


Advanced cultures
A map showing the extent of three distinct cultures within the American Southwest.

The American Indian archaic culture eventually evolved into three major prehistoric archaeological culture areas in the American Southwest and Northern Mexico. These cultures, sometimes referred to as Oasisamerica, are characterized by dependence on agriculture, formal social stratification, population clusters and major architecture.

The culture of Ancient Pueblo People, academically referred to as the Anasazi, was centered around the present-day Four Corners area. Their distinctive pottery and dwelling construction styles emerged in the area around CE 750, though the origins of their hallmark material culture characteristics can be found within the Basketmaker II Period (1500 BCE-400 CE).[9] The Anasazi are renowned for the construction of and cultural achievement present at Pueblo Bonito and other sites in Chaco Canyon, as well as Mesa Verde, Aztec Ruins, and Salmon Ruins.
The Hohokam tradition, centered on the middle Gila River and lower Salt River drainage areas, and extending into the southern Sonoran Desert, is believed to have emerged in approximately CE 200. These people lived in smaller settlement clusters than their neighbors, and built extensive irrigation canals for a wide range of agricultural crops. There is evidence the Hohokam had far-reaching trade routes with ancient Mesoamerican cultures to the south, and show cultural influences from these southerners. A defining moment of the Classic Hohokam is the emergence of Salado culture, likely a product of ethnogenesis with an influx of migrating Kayenta Anasazi[10]
The culture known as the Mogollon /moʊɡəˈjoʊn/ lived in the southwest from approximately CE 150 until sometime between CE 1300 and 1400. Archaeological sites attributed to the Mogollon are found in the Gila Wilderness, Mimbres River Valley, along the Upper Gila river, Paquime and Hueco Tanks, an area of low mountains between the Franklin Mountains to the west and the Hueco Mountains to the east.

In addition, three distinct minor cultures inhabited the eastern, western, and northern extremes of the area. From CE 1200 into the historic era a people collectively known as the La Junta Indians lived at the junction of the Conchos River and Rio Grande on the border of Texas and Mexico. Several Spanish explorers described this culture which was related to or derivative from the Jornada Mogollon.[11] Between CE 700 and 1550, the Patayan culture inhabited parts of modern day Arizona, California and Baja California, including areas near the Colorado River Valley, nearby uplands, and north to the vicinity of the Grand Canyon. The Fremont culture inhabited sites in what is now Utah and parts of Nevada, Idaho and Colorado from CE 700 to 1300.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_Archaeology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is Chaco canyon a 'marketting trick' too?

i wonder what the etymology of the word "Anasazi" is !!!

sounds similar to the the word "Ashkenazi" as in ashkenazi jews....

depends on what contentions you use it to support

the uptick of violence always tracks desperate times
the question is did man evolve under the pressure of desperate times

it was a given for more than a century
but its becoming less likely all the time

dill786 wrote:i wonder what the etymology of the word "Anasazi" is !!!

It means 'ancient ones' or 'ancient enemies', in navaho, who were relative late-comers to the area
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/mbraman/anasazi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do some reading on the pueblo tribes vs the navaho -interesting stuff

^ thanks, i read up about certain indian tribes performing circumcision of there new born male children at the side of river banks, and there is this theory that the native indian is one of the lost tribes of Israel, thats why i inquired about the name of one of the tribes...

dill786 wrote:^ thanks, i read up about certain indian tribes performing circumcision of there new born male children at the side of river banks, and there is this theory that the native indian is one of the lost tribes of Israel, thats why i inquired about the name of one of the tribes...

Those 'lost tribes' got around.
Here's some stuff they built in africa:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/my ... babwe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ever wonder why jesus was from judah rather than levi?
http://ichthys.com/mail-Judah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

king Solomons gold mines were supposed to be in greater zimbabwe..

A couple more articles related to the bow in NA:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2BYkIp ... tJODg/edit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2BYkIp ... edit?pli=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

went i got taken out to hunt for arrowheads

we went to a place they would camp
and immediately
i saw the deal

it was an elevated place

and the proliferance of flakes
was where youd sit
and keep a lookout

i know how much goes into crafting

arrows
bows
strings

any band of people
had to have people dedicated to producing these items

bentech wrote:...
i know how much goes into crafting....
any band of people
had to have people dedicated to producing these items

You are projecting your 'feelings' on other people without evidence.
Got any significant grave-goods that support your 'theory 'of social stratification?

The 2nd article I posted is in conflict with the usual time-line of the bow in NA.

Some of bits and pieces of arrow heads, tools and scrap chips I’ve kept over the years,

The white scrapping tool was found in death valley np while diggin down about 3 feet to uncover the “spring”.
The rest in the Sierras, one find these old camps just littered with obsidian flakes Thanks for looking

its gone now

but i had me this big chunck

it was whats refererend to a a "core"

big chunk of primary material
you hit to slame off pieces that
youd then further work
to make your tooks

it actually took a bit to recognize what i was

back in the stone age

it would have been a resource

something hiked across great disttance

or burried
to come back for

once i fitured out what it was

i wondered

how many years there were
in beteween

the man whod last "worked" it
and me picking it up

a skilled person

could
have

looked at the marks
the pattern

and have given a good guess

every age had their way about it

and these left fingerprints

huge discovery
and right out of the museum


World's oldest engraving discovered

The chiselled shell, dating back between 540,000 and 430,000 years, was among the iconic fossil collection established in the 19th century by Eugène Dubois, at Trinil, in Java, Indonesia, where he discovered the first Homo erectus.


http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/ ... discovered" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

pretty fuck
evidence we ate our own



Kelso’s team found the remains, which belonged to a 14-year-old girl, in a trash pile with the bones of butchered horses, dogs, rats, and mice. Someone trying to separate flesh from the bones with a knife left marks on the skull, jawbone, and tibia. The marks appear to have been made inexpertly, or by someone who was hesitating to butcher the bones. “There’s no question that this is evidence for survival cannibalism,”


http://www.archaeology.org/issues/96-13 ... annibalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you know then
what the deal was?

things were so desperate

you didnt bury the girl
or at least
you dug her back up

they were so set on "theyre" ways
they couldnt fit into where they had washed up

so they had to eat their children

and here the story is
we were bringing civilization

what a laugh

heart breaking

Even as Beirut reinvents itself yet again—this time as a skyscraper-studded center of finance—a new generation of young Lebanese archaeologists is fighting to reclaim the city's complicated past before it is gone for good. In the rush to build during the past decade, Roman ruins were bulldozed, columns were crushed into cement, and piles of ancient debris were relegated to the city dump.

"http://www.archaeology.org/issues/96-13 ... annibalism

What we know of Beirut's ancient history is more a series of snapshots than a continuous record. Sixty thousand years ago, early humans made stone tools on the tongue of land that extends out from the Lebanon Mountains and forms the city's modern boundaries. Archaeologists have uncovered a small Neolithic village dating to 4000 B.C. near today's airport. As civilization emerged in the third millennium B.C., the first major cities along the Mediterranean coast took root nearby. Byblos, now a half-hour drive up the coast, flourished, while Tyre and Sidon grew to the south. These important ports became centers for the seafaring Phoenicians, a trading people who spread across the region between the sixteenth and fourth centuries B.C.

Boffins unearth the ultimate antique art - 500,000 years old
Early Homo was about more than being erect
By Iain Thomson, 5 Dec 2014

The oldest example of our ancestors' artistic talents has been unearthed, after spending over a century hiding in plain view.

The artifact in question is a mussel shell found near the bones of a member of the species Homo Erectus in the 1890s by Dutch paleontologist Eugène Dubois on the island of Java in what's now Indonesia. After more than 70 years gathering dust in a museum in Leiden a new examination showed one of the shells had been inscribed by an artistic hominid up to 500,000 years ago.

Josephine Joordens, a biologist at Leiden University, was studying the shells to see how the hominid would have used marine resources. A large number of the shells had a small hole punched into a specific spot, which would have severed the mussel's muscle that kept it clammed up and made it easier to open.

Looking at the inside the shell she noticed that someone had carved a series of triangular symbols on the interior, about one centimeter tall. The markings, though faint, came from a mollusc that was around 500,000 years old, making it the earliest artwork ever discovered.

"People never found this engraving because it's hardly visible," Joordens told Nature. "It's only when you have light from a certain angle that it stands out."

Tests on similar shells show that it took a lot of effort to make the carvings. Since Erectus didn't use metal tools, Joordens speculated that a shark's tooth had been used to make the inscription.

If you don't know the intention of the person who made it, it's impossible to call it art," said Joordens.

"But on the other hand, it is an ancient drawing. It is a way of expressing yourself. What was meant by the person who did this, we simply don't know. It could have been to impress his girlfriend, or to doodle a bit, or to mark the shell as his own property."

Art is one of the signs of higher cognitive brain functions and early Homo Sapiens spent a lot of time slapping paint on cave walls for his or her edification. In September the first piece of Neanderthal art was discovered from around 40,000 years ago, but the age of this latest find dramatically increases estimates of how long mankind and our ancestors have had an artistic bent.

Clive Finlayson, a zoologist at the Gibraltar Museum who co-authored the Nature paper, said that the find could cause scientists to reconsider what markers we use to indicate advanced human intelligence and to reconsider the role of Homo Erectus, which died out around 140,000 years ago.

"I've been suggesting increasingly strongly that a lot of these things that are meant to be modern human we're finding in other hominids," he said. "We really need to revisit these concepts and take stock."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/05 ... years_old/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's 1 hell of a gap between 'art....500k to 40k!
Here's a link to the Nature article (no longer behind a paywall):
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 13962.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bentech wrote:What we know of Beirut's ancient history is more a series of snapshots than a continuous record. Sixty thousand years ago, early humans made stone tools on the tongue of land that extends out from the Lebanon Mountains and forms the city's modern boundaries. Archaeologists have uncovered a small Neolithic village dating to 4000 B.C. near today's airport. As civilization emerged in the third millennium B.C., the first major cities along the Mediterranean coast took root nearby. Byblos, now a half-hour drive up the coast, flourished, while Tyre and Sidon grew to the south. These important ports became centers for the seafaring Phoenicians, a trading people who spread across the region between the sixteenth and fourth centuries B.C.

, makes sense to me afterall they did carve out the baalbeck stone

ok
so we know neandthals were painting pictures

but now
we have evidence

another "species" of humans

from back before any of our species made a foot print

had the free time to tech

truely momumental news

4000 BC doesn't seem to be that long ago if you take into consideration the estimated age of the Gobekli Tepe ruins which are dated back to 10,000 years plus

oldest broze object found in brittian to date
pushes their bronze age back to 4000 years ago
about 1200 years earlier than previous thought
a dagger which had a studded handle

about 1200 years





http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-30478544" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

country boy wrote:That's 1 hell of a gap between 'art....500k to 40k!
Here's a link to the Nature article (no longer behind a paywall):
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 13962.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dang. It looks as if it is still behind the paywall. too bad. just gives a brief synopsis

Not for me?

The manufacture of geometric engravings is generally interpreted as indicative of modern cognition and behaviour1. Key questions in the debate on the origin of such behaviour are whether this innovation is restricted to Homo sapiens, and whether it has a uniquely African origin1. Here we report on a fossil freshwater shell assemblage from the Hauptknochenschicht (‘main bone layer’) of Trinil (Java, Indonesia), the type locality of Homo erectus discovered by Eugène Dubois in 1891 (refs 2 and 3). In the Dubois collection (in the Naturalis museum, Leiden, The Netherlands) we found evidence for freshwater shellfish consumption by hominins, one unambiguous shell tool, and a shell with a geometric engraving. We dated sediment contained in the shells with 40Ar/39Ar and luminescence dating methods, obtaining a maximum age of 0.54 ± 0.10 million years and a minimum age of 0.43 ± 0.05 million years. This implies that the Trinil Hauptknochenschicht is younger than previously estimated. Together, our data indicate that the engraving was made by Homo erectus, and that it is considerably older than the oldest geometric engravings described so far4, 5. Although it is at present not possible to assess the function or meaning of the engraved shell, this discovery suggests that engraving abstract patterns was in the realm of Asian Homo erectus cognition and neuromotor control.

Right, I get that too. But to read the article itself, I get:

Purchase article full text and PDF:
$32
Buy now

not that I'm complaining, information is not cheap, I'm used to the breadcrumbs; spoiled by age of information.

Apparently, 'free' isn't :
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141 ... -drm.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i would have left and IED inside the box

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -1795.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh dear!
heaven send a nice fat rich which mouthpeace to make it all sound reasonable!!!

Sacred Native American ruin vandalized
jordan cave,
had only been an archilogical site for a bout a year
stupid goons


The U.S. Forest Department says historical Native American artifacts were tossed over an embankment, potentially destroying 800 years of history.

The department released a photograph of three persons of interest, who may have information about the vandalism. The public is being asked to help identify the individuals or share any additional information.


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/12- ... /22141517/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kinda pretentious title, but still...


1st Americans Used Spear-Throwers to Hunt Large Animals

by Joseph Castro,
January 28, 2015

Despite a lack of archaeological evidence, the first North Americans have often been depicted hunting with spear-throwers, which are tools that can launch deadly spear points at high speeds. But now, a new analysis of microscopic fractures on Paleo-Indian spear points provides the first empirical evidence that America's first hunters really did use these weapons to tackle mammoths and other big game.

The new study has implications for scientists' understanding of the way Paleo-Indians lived, researchers say.

To understand the inner workings of extinct hunter-gatherer societies, it's important to first learn how the ancient peoples got the food they ate, because their lives were closely tied to their subsistence activities. Current models of Paleo-Indian society are based on the assumption that hunters sometimes used spear-throwers, or atlatls, said study author Karl Hutchings, an archaeologist at Thompson Rivers University in Canada. [In Photos: The Clovis Culture & Stone Tools]

"We can now be assured that those assumptions were right," Hutchings told Live Science.

Ancient hunting tools

Similar to bows, atlatls can propel flexible, pointed shafts — called darts, rather than arrows — at high speeds across long distances. Essentially, they were sticklike tools that contained a hook or spur at one end to hold a dart. By swinging the spear-thrower overhead and forward, hunters could launch their darts with greater force than if they were to throw them like javelins.

Archaeological evidence indicates that hunter-gathers in the Old World used atlatls beginning at least 18,000 years ago. Researchers have long thought that Paleo-Indians — including the people of the Clovis culture, who lived around 13,000 years ago and are considered one of the first American peoples — also hunted with spear-throwers.

Researchers reasoned that "if the spear-thrower originated in the Old World, then it only made sense that it must have shown up with early [North American] colonists," Hutchings said. Additionally, Paleo-Indians were thought to have hunted big animals, such as mammoths and ground sloths, which would have required powerful, long-distance weapons to take the animals down safely. "People started wondering just how crazy you would have to be to run up to these things with just a sharp, broken rock tied to a stick."

But archeological evidence of Paleo-Indian atlatls and darts is lacking because these tools were often made of wood, which doesn't preserve well — the only part of the weapons left in the archaeological record are the stone points, which could have also been used in other types of weapons, such as spears, Hutchings said. In comparison, ancient spear-throwers from Europe were often made of ivory or bone.

The earliest known evidence of Paleo-Indian spear-throwers comes from 11,000-year-old "bannerstones," which are stone objects that may have functioned as atlatl weights, though the true function of bannerstones is debated, Hutchings said. [Top 10 Mysteries of the 1st Humans]

The earliest solid evidence of atlatls in the New World, then, are 9,000- to 10,000-year-old spear-thrower hooks from Warm Mineral Springs, a sinkhole in Florida. However, these tools date back to the Early Archaic subperiod, which came after the Paleo-Indian period.

Telltale fractures

To see if the earliest North Americans — including people from the Clovis culture, Folsom culture (10,000 to 11,000 years ago) and other Paleo-Indians — used atlatls, Hutchings analyzed the fractures present in hundreds of spear points. He looked for clues that the weapon tips experienced high-velocity, mechanically propelled impacts.

If a spear point hits a target hard enough, the energy of the impact will cause the tip to break. "When it breaks, it sends a shock wave through the stone that produces fractures, which are related to the amount and kind of force involved," Hutchings said.

By measuring topographic features on the fracture surface, you can calculate the "fracture velocity" of the impact, or how quickly the fractures spread through the material, Hutchings explained. Because different weapons — spears, javelins, atlatls or bows — produce specific fracture velocities and related forces, you can work backward from a fracture to determine what caused it.

Using this method, which he developed in the late 1990s, Hutchings determined the fracture velocities for 55 out of 668 Paleo-Indian artifacts that he examined. Of these points, about half of them exhibited fracture velocities that can only be achieved using an atlatl and dart or a bow and arrow.

Because Paleo-Indians aren't thought to have had bows and arrows or other propulsive weapons, the findings suggest that they most likely used atlatls to launch their spear points, Hutchings said.

Importantly, the method may also help scientists better understand ancient projectile technologies, by allowing them to trace the origin of the technologies and how they were used across societies and continents. "We can get a better resolution of when these technologies occurred, how they spread and why they spread," Hutchings said.

Hutchings detailed his findings in the March issue of the Journal of Archaeological Science.




http://www.livescience.com/49603-paleo- ... dence.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Bow & Arrow Technology Changed the World
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Tuesday, August 06, 2013

STONY BROOK, NEW YORK—The invention of the bow and arrow triggered the growth of increased levels of social complexity wherever it was adopted, according to biologists Paul Bingham and Joanne Souza of Stony Brook University. They argue that the technological revolution of the bow and arrow gave social groups a safe and effective way to coerce uncooperative individuals into compliance, or to encourage them to leave. A review of archaeological data in North America by John Blitz and Eric Porth of the University of Alabama supports this “social-coercion hypothesis.” They say the invention of the bow made hunters and warriors more efficient, and eventually led to population increases and the metropolises of the Mississippian era.


http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... tures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.archaeology.org/news/1174-13 ... technology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vinyl Records Excavated at Famous ’60s Commune Challenge ‘Hippie’ Stereotype, Study Says


Posted by Blake de Pastino




The Grateful Dead once lived there, apparently taken with the acoustics of the living room.

Its bucolic grounds were featured on the back cover of the Dead’s 1969 album Aoxomoxoa.

And the crush of musical luminaries who passed through it include Grace Slick, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, and a 5-year-old girl named Courtney Love.

But the country estate known as Rancho Olompali in Marin County, California was best known as the site of a social experiment that lasted all of 600 days: a commune called The Chosen Family, where at one point nearly 90 people sought refuge from the tumult of San Francisco street life in the late 1960s.

And if their musical tastes were any indication, archaeologists say, its members were surprisingly diverse.
Olompali Commune Vinyl RecordsAmong the artifacts found at the commune ruins were nearly 100 vinyl records, pictured here in situ in 1991. (Photo by Margaret Purser)

The Chosen Family experiment ran from the fall of 1967 until late summer 1969, after an electrical fire had consumed the 26-room mansion that was its headquarters, leaving the commune in social and financial disarray.

State archaeologist E. Breck Parkman began exploring the site — now enshrined in a state park — as early as 1981, seeking to explore the historical realities behind what he believes are preconceived notions about the commune and its members.

“I’ve used the contemporary archaeology of Olompali to address the concept of stereotype, in this case, what we generally consider to be the ‘hippie,'” said Parkman, senior archaeologist for California’s state parks.
[Read about another recent dig into 20th century history: “New Mexico’s ‘Atari Dump,’ a Midden of Video Games, to Be Excavated”

And most recently, his work has focused on the aspect of material culture that’s perhaps more closely associated with hippie life than any other: music.

After decades of research punctuated by complications and delays, Parkman has excavated and analyzed 93 vinyl records from the charred ruins of Olompali’s mansion.

“To date, I’ve managed to identify 55 of those records, with somewhat surprising results,” he said.

Instead of The Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, he said, he found Judy Garland, Burl Ives, Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme.

Rather than the voices of counterculture, he uncovered scores of albums of classic jazz, folk, show tunes, even comedy.

“The wide range of musical styles represented by this ‘hippie discography’ suggests that the people who came together to form this ‘hippie’ commune had a wide range of backgrounds, including their musical tastes,” Parkman said.

His findings, which he reports in the journal World Archaeology, were long in coming.

Parkman originally started a salvage excavation of Olompali’s burned-out mansion in 1997. But it soon became clear that the site was contaminated with toxic building materials, especially asbestos and lead.

Five years passed before hazmat crews could dig up the debris — which they did without concern for archaeological methods — and dumped it all into a series of 55-gallon drums.

In 2009, another crew in protective suits cleaned and sorted the debris in the barrels, leaving Parkman with, among other artifacts, nearly 100 vinyl discs.

None of them were playable, and only a handful had their paper labels intact.

But in many cases, the discs still had readable stamper codes, also known as matrix codes, the series of numbers and letters etched into the disc between the last track and the center label.

Many of those codes could then be traced to catalog numbers, and the titles of the albums.
Judy Garland vinyl record album from OlompaliJudy Garland’s 1961 double album “Judy at Carnegie Hall” was among the records identified at Olompali. (Courtesy E. Breck Parkman)

To confirm his findings, Parkman took an additional step: He measured the number and length of the tracks on each side of the disc and compared them to the album associated with the code.

All told, he identified 55 of the records. Only two turned out to have been released during the days of the Olompali commune: Renaissance by Vanilla Fudge, and Super Session by Mike Bloomfield, Al Kooper and Stephen Stills.

The rest were an eclectic mix — jazz standards like Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Gershwin Songbook, Vol. 2, Broadway themes like My Fair Lady and South Pacific, and the comedy of Bill Cosby’s Why Is There Air?

While perhaps surprising in their variety, and rather establishment tastes, Parkman said, these records were not the soundtrack of daily life at Olompali.

Instead, he said, they’re artifacts of the various segments of mainstream culture that the Chosen Family’s members had once identified with, and in some ways, tried to leave behind.

“I don’t believe most of these records were listened to during the years of the commune, but rather reflect where these people came from before arriving at Olompali,” he said.

“The records arrived at Olompali as literal cultural baggage.”

Indeed, music was a large part of life at the commune, he added, but it wasn’t the music of Judy Garland or Harry Belafonte.

The Chosen Family was famously and intimately connected to San Francisco’s music scene, especially the Grateful Dead.

The commune was not only based in the band’s former house, but many members also worked as their stage hands; in fact, most were on duty at a concert on the night of the fateful fire in 1969.
Aoxomoxoa Back Cover (Grateful Dead)The photo on the back cover of The Grateful Dead’s 1969 “Aoxomoxoa” was shot at Olompali, with some members of the Chosen Family commune, and a young Courtney Love, lower right. (Courtesy E. Breck Parkman)

And of course, its members can be seen on the back of Aoxomoxoa, lounging with the band, their manager Hank Harrison, and his daughter Courtney Love, on the hillside by the mansion.

In the end, Parkman said, the discography discovered at Olompali reinforces the often overlooked fact that the commune’s members were a more complex group than could be defined by what he calls “a simplistic one-size-fits-all definition of a hippie.”

“Various aspects of the archaeological record at Olompali help inform our understanding of the Sixties counterculture movement, but these vinyl records are particularly helpful,” he said.

“The range of musical genres represented by these 55 records suggests to me that the commune members came from all kinds of backgrounds before joining the Chosen Family and, by default, before joining the counterculture,” he said.

“How might that compare if you were to examine the musical tastes of those joining an outlaw biker gang in the 1970s or a street gang today?”

“We have stereotype images of the biker and gangbanger, too.”

“What if we discovered that bikers came from all walks of life and appreciated a wide variety of music before donning their colors? That may very well be the case.”

“What is a hippie?” Parkman mused. “These 55 records suggest it might have been any one of us, in the right moment in time.”

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ResearchBlogging.org

Parkman, E. (2014). A hippie discography: vinyl records from a Sixties commune World Archaeology, 1-17 DOI: 10.1080/00438243.2014.909103



In memory of Michael Henningsen

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Posted in 20th Century, anthropology, archaeology, artifacts, California, Historic Archaeology, Recent, science | Tagged albums, Chosen Family, Courtney Love, discography, E. Breck Parkman, Grateful Dead, music, Olompali, record, Rock n roll, vinyl
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Vinyl Records Excavated at Famous '60s Commune ... June 5, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

[…] The Grateful Dead once lived there, apparently taken with the acoustics of the living room. Its bucolic grounds were featured on the back cover of the Dead's 1969 album Aoxomoxoa. And the crush of … […]
xian
xian June 5, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

It turns out that that’s not Courtney Love on the back of Aoxomoxoa.
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Blake de Pastino
Blake de Pastino June 5, 2014 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

Hi Christian,

Dr. Breckman places her there at the time, and Dead chronicler David Gans (above, I think) seems to do the same. There’s also this, not that it’s definitive:
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David Gans
David Gans June 5, 2014 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

Is it possible that there were more records but they departed with the troupe, leaving only the less culturally desirable ones behind?
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Blake de Pastino
Blake de Pastino June 5, 2014 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

That’s an interesting question. It appears from Breckman’s account and that of others that the fire consumed the mansion and all of its contents on the night of Feb. 2, 1969. Firefighters actually got there before the members of the Family returned from the concert. So there wasn’t an opportunity for them to go in and rescue certain objects.
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Bill
Bill June 7, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

why focus on the biggest names? there were lots of people there. It’s more than likely that they just belonged to someone else who brought their record collection from home, found a different cultural ID, & then moved.
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Sandy
Sandy September 22, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

David that was my thought exactly….they left behind the unwanted albums!!!
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Archeologists excavate hippie commune's record collection | Designolics June 9, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

[…] 'hippie' commune had a wide range of backgrounds, including their musical tastes," Parkman said. "Vinyl Records Excavated at Famous ’60s Commune Challenge ‘Hippie’ Stereotype, Study Says" (Thanks, Bob Pescovitz!) …read […]
R.E. Baker
R.E. Baker June 9, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

What is known as “hippie” today is far from what the original hippie was. In fact the Dead were into country, blues and bluegrass music. They were essentially an Americana band with a penchant for LSD. It’s not surprising to find “square” stuff like Judy Garland and Burl Ives there. They weren’t as one dimensional and predictable as the typical liberal, hacky sack playing, bike riding vegan of today. In fact, by today’s standards, the hippie movement was much more libertarian-leaning as far as wanting to get away from the government and pushing the concept of being an individual. It was much different than what is commonly thought and more inclusive and free than any scene today.
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bg davis
bg davis October 17, 2014 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

I spent a weekend at that commune in the 60s; went up from the City with a friend looking for some girl he used to know who was into the music scene (in L.A.).
Most of the people were total losers, lying around stoned in the mud (it was raining) in their teepees.
But it was a mix. The most pathetic one was some guy from the City (SF) who had quit his teaching job and moved up there, bringing his wife and kids, actually believing that they were going to be part of a real groundswell movement to change the world for the better. This poor guy was trying to live a model lifestyle in the midst of general degeneracy. Basically, he had painted himself into a corner.
He had nice books and a record collection, so yes, there were some gems among the refuse. But it’s typical of anthropologists to try to make an anomaly into something representative. I spent plenty of time in the Haight, Golden Gate Park, Marin and points north during that era. Also dipped into the Berkeley scene from time to time. Some nice people but the stereotypes did accurately fit the vast majority of hippies.
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Mike McRoberts
Mike McRoberts June 9, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

When I was a long-haired rock and roll musician in the 70’s we frequently would go over to other long-haired rock and roll musician’s homes. Usually, we all listened to jazz.
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Vinyl Records Excavated at Famous ’60s Commune Challenge ‘Hippie’ Stereotype, Study Says | Worldwide Hippies June 10, 2014 at 5:23 am | Permalink

[…] “I’ve used the contemporary archaeology of Olompali to address the concept of stereotype, in this case, what we generally consider to be the ‘hippie,’” said Parkman, senior archaeologist for California’s state parks. Continue reading… […]
A Journal of Musical ThingsAncient Buried Vinyl Collection Unearthed at Site of Old Hippie Commune » A Journal of Musical Things June 10, 2014 at 7:19 am | Permalink

[…] Read more here. […]
Records excavated at 60′s hippie commune have archaeologists literally digging for vinyl – The Vinyl Factory June 12, 2014 at 4:56 am | Permalink

[…] in a fascinating story posted by Western Digs, the former commune, which has been subject to archaeologist E. Breck Parkman’s studies since […]
Sadie McFarlane
Sadie McFarlane June 12, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

“While perhaps surprising in their variety, and rather establishment tastes, Parkman said, these records were not the soundtrack of daily life at Olompali. Instead, he said, they’re artifacts of the various segments of mainstream culture that the Chosen Family’s members had once identified with, and in some ways, tried to leave behind.”

What an arrogant jerk! What makes this guy so sure hippies didn’t listen to jazz and soundtracks and comedy records? I was a hippie, and I did! His narrow-mindedness is getting in the way of his research – but unlike the old “every large building is a temple” school of archeology, the people involved are still around to call him on the fallacy in his thinking.
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Alan C
Alan C June 29, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

So true, Sadie! First, to stereotype hippies as a monolith, musically or otherwise, is as vapid and eye-rolling as saying every Beat had a goatee and beret and played bongos a la Maynard.

My friends and I played our parents’ 78s incessantly: Gene Krupa, Danny Kaye, Bing Crosby, old movie soundtracks. A few of our grandparents had Victrolas and one even had a gramophone and we’d play old Dixieland or crooners singing through megaphones. My experience during that time is that the mindset was very very inclusive: foods, cultures, music, ethnogens, clothes, everything. Sure, there were popular contemporary musicians, but *their* music was usually very diverse and inclusive.
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Dave
Dave June 12, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

Of course they were peaking out to Super Session! One of my favourite albums of all time. Great article.
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Records excavated at 60′s hippie commune have archaeologists literally digging for vinyl | Live For Vinyl June 13, 2014 at 4:03 am | Permalink

[…] in a fascinating story posted by Western Digs, the former commune, which has been subject to archaeologist E. Breck Parkman’s studies since the […]
Sound Stage Direct » Blog Archive Weekly Vinyl And Music News Wrap Up - Week Ending June 13 » Sound Stage Direct June 13, 2014 at 9:50 am | Permalink

[…] Vinyl Records Excavated at Famous ’60s Commune Challenge ‘Hippie’ Stereotype, Study Says […]
Richard. Brooks
Richard. Brooks June 29, 2014 at 4:13 am | Permalink

Sadie, I agree he’s way off track in his postulations, but I wonder how you ‘was a hippie’. How can one used to have been a hippie and not still be one? Maybe you are still; one would hope so. Also, there were pseudo-hippies and then yuppies. Myself, I was an aspiring Yippie, but I couldn’t shake the image of the deranged, drug-addicted Viet Nam Veteran. Though Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman weren’t my heroes, neither were Iggy Pop or Jonathan Richman. I cried at Woodstock when Jimi played the Star-Spangled Banner – as did everyone else I saw. All musical genres, from every corner of the planet, is what makes ‘the world go round’, and me spin.
As an added bit of mania, I found myself on Shakedown St. New Year’s Eve 1988 in the parking lot of the Oakland Coliseum, selling my jewelry, while the Grateful Dead were inside playing their yearly concert. At ten minutes to midnite, a bullet found my face, a random new years’ shot, which may have possibly come from up to 2mi away. It lodged in my flesh, traveling for an inch from just outside my cheek bone down to the center of my cheek. It sent me to the ground like someone came up behind me with a baseball bat and hit a grand slam home run. I couldn’t say I’d been shot, that implies somebody was aiming at me; I was hit in the face with a bullet. Ten minutes later, at midnite, the Dead played, ‘It’s Another Saturday Night’ (the show inside was being broadcast live on KSAN-FM radio) while the party raged in the parking lot. It was a Saturday night, the disco bus was jamming, there were fireworks everywhere, one schoolbus had about 30 gay dudes dancing on the roof in diapers!! I was still seeing fireworks, but I was up and dancing. Didn’t know I had a bullet in my face till the next day when a doctor at Oakland City Hosp pulled it out. I’m still seeing fireworks and hearing the music 25yrs later!!!!
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L.V. Sage
L.V. Sage July 11, 2014 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

Interesting, yet I must agree with Sadie. I’m not technically of the “hippie” generation (born in 1965), but I do remember listening to many albums that my parents had from their era such as Elvis Presley. Fortunately for me, my parents mostly listened to (& bought) rock n roll albums, so that was the majority of what we heard in the house (Rolling Stones, Beatles, CCR, Janis Joplin, etc).

As for outlaw bikers, I hardly think that they would have grown up listening to any one particular type of music.

BTW-check out my novel about the “hippie/Vietnam/biker era” Red, White & Blues” available on Amazon!

http://www.amazon.com/Red-White-Blues-L ... f_gw_s_t_9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alan C
Alan C July 11, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

+ L.V.
So basically, this is some commercial bullshit about your sell-something agenda. Apparently, your parents didn’t play enough music for you to know how very uncool your post is. Peace.
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L.V. Sage
L.V. Sage July 12, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

Wow. What a sad, negative human being you are. I wish I never posted any reply so if you can suggest how I might remove it, I will be more than happy to do so.
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Alan C
Alan C July 12, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

My point is that to push your book in a Comments section is tacky. I apologize for being harsh in making that point.
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L.V. Sage
L.V. Sage July 12, 2014 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

I understand and I don’t ever mean to come across like that (like I am pushing my book). I guess it’s just human nature to want to share your accomplishments with others who you feel might relate to or appreciate them. I often have free giveaways on the book, so it has little to do with making money, just exposure. Anyway, I would be more than happy to remove the link so that it doesn’t offend anyone else if someone can instruct me on how to do so.
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Buttery Biscuit
Buttery Biscuit July 12, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

I cannot believe anything later than 1900 could be considered archaeology with so much documentation and PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE to talk to. This reminds me of the excavation of the Barbie Doll sent supposedly to the Smithsonian.
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Jack Kessler
Jack Kessler September 8, 2014 at 6:21 am | Permalink

I am still not sure whether this is a send-up or not, but if it isn’t, it shows the hazards of archaeological interpretation. I lived in communal houses in that era and I can assure you that the records that were found were there survived precisely because no one played them. Records that anyone wanted to listen to were soon stolen for the most part, or exchanged for crap, or wore out, or got scratched too badly to be played,

Parkman is looking at the dregs that remains in what was in effect a record exchange, and assuming that they are there because they were played. In fact the opposite is the case. The reason they remained in the exchange was that no one wanted them.

To put this in archaeological terms, Parkman thinks he found a trove whereas in fact he has found a midden.



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