are any of our thoughts conscious themselves?

[MadMoonMan]

You can't erase the past history band.... GOD recorded it. So you can't erase the past. Therefore you can't go back and change it.

[roller24]

The righteous man will strive to good by allowing the intellect of reason prevail, but rarely without primary thoughts of instinctual desires.

So if a mother protects a child out of instinct – against all reason – is that not also "righteous"?

You are arguing from your own perspective, roller. I'm not saying that's a bad (or good) thing, but it still clearly demonstrates my argument that "good"and "evil" and "sin" and "righteousness" are just a matter of perspective. Those words have nothing to do with "reason".

Reason is what we use to justify our actions – often when someone else deems those actions evil.

What I was projecting really has nothing to do with one's perception of righteousness, but the existence of that perception and his actions or reactions accordingly.
All creatures are capable of learned behaviours, and some will(flight or fight etc) but the distinction of the human is going many levels beyond.
Your instincts may have led you to desire a woman other than your wife at some point. Did you follow your instincts or did you govern your physical desires?
This is what I'm talking about, and what I think rsin's topic is pertaining to encompass.
I guess determinism prevents you from acknowledging freewill. So if you do that other woman and get caught, your spouse will understand that it was just a predetermined chain reaction.

Did she buy it?
asking for a friend

[ben ttech]

The problem arises when you associate actions with free will –

when they stick us on a machines and ask us question. the machine knows weve reached a choice long before our conscious picks one
our brain reveals the choice made long before our conscious agrees...

[ben ttech]

Richard Carrier

ive great respect for carrier.
howd you happen on him?

[ripper5]

Richard Carrier

ive great respect for carrier.
howd you happen on him?

I originally happened onto Carrier because of my following of my girl dearly departed Acharya S, whom he criticized in part. I follow him on FB.

[ben ttech]

lets not forget determinism comes in flavors
hard being only one...

[ben ttech]

my girl dearly departed Acharya S, whom he criticized in part. I follow him on FB.

i dont know the particulars. he really is a scientist.

he slashes through a number of assumptions which never the less go presently relied on

[Prawn Connery]

What I was projecting really has nothing to do with one's perception of righteousness, but the existence of that perception and his actions or reactions accordingly.
All creatures are capable of learned behaviours, and some will(flight or fight etc) but the distinction of the human is going many levels beyond.
Your instincts may have led you to desire a woman other than your wife at some point. Did you follow your instincts or did you govern your physical desires?
This is what I'm talking about, and what I think rsin's topic is pertaining to encompass.
I guess determinism prevents you from acknowledging freewill. So if you do that other woman and get caught, your spouse will understand that it was just a predetermined chain reaction.

Did she buy it?
asking for a friend

How do you know my wife doesn't like women also? Maybe she encourages me to pursue other women for her own gain. Perhaps she is disabled and wants me to be happy by finding a sexual release with someone else. Maybe I'm bisexual and actually chase men. Or bring them home to satisfy my wife.

So many scenarios in which everyone is happy. Yet "righteous" people tell us all these possible outcomes are "wrong" or – in your words – "sin".

There are also plenty of humans – possibly even most – who have succumbed to their "instincts" at one point in time to cheat on their partners. By your definition they are all animals. I don't disagree: we are all animals.

Birds choose partners for life. Many will not even take another partner after their own dies. Are they human, roller?

Religion has the uncanny effect of making humans believe they are "gods" by trying to elevate themselves above all other living things. Yet we are simply a specialist animal.

Some animals run faster; some swim underwater; some fly; some can sniff out cancer; some are strong enough to move a thousand times their bodyweight. We have evolved to be better problem-solvers. That is all. Take that away, and we are actually vastly inferior to most other animals on earth in terms of physical attributes.

And what makes you think that curbing our instincts is not also "learned behaviour" – just like a crocodile? Get caught cheating – or be on the receiving end of it – and it hurts. Did we learn our lesson not to do it again? Is it even a lesson? Or is it just an experience?

Determinism tells us it is just an experience.

[Solid Gold Butt Plug]

If you need me to bang your wife you know where to find me.

[Prawn Connery]

What you are actually referring to, roller, is "culture". Culture determines what is "right" and what is "wrong" in a society – which includes other animals, BTW. Culture does not always follow logic. Religion is a prime example of an irrational culture – in many cases it does more harm than good.

Animals also have culture, roller. They have hierarchies and rules and patterns of behaviour that are unique to their societies.

Don't be arrogant enough to think we are better than all other forms of life just because we have evolved more complex brains. Having a bigger brain is no guarantee you would survive all by yourself naked in the middle of a jungle or desert – but many animals can do just that.

We have evolved to suit our environment. And we have the ability to change that environment to meet our evolution. But we are not the only ones.