UKRAINE & EU v RUSSIA part 2

[roller24]

Our most prestigious members have now narrowed the debate to "Regardless of blame, we need to intervene to save the people of Ukraine"
However, they don't give distinction to "Which" Ukrainians they intend to liberate.

A great many Ukrainians in the east welcome the Russians, as they have been under attack from their own government. 2 Oblasts have felt so detached and abandoned by Kiev, They held referendums and declared independence.
More Ukrainians in the Crimean Peninsula voted to return to Russian control. 80% of the those registered voted and 90% favored Russia.
The rest of Ukraine favors EU as the primary ally, and hold anti Russian views.

You decry civilian deaths from Russian troops, but have yet to bring into the discussion, 8 years of civilian blood on Kiev's hands.
Almost certain genocide to occur, had not these civilians been assisted by neighboring Russia.

So let's take someone's stripped down argument and strip it down even further.

Russia is in Ukraine killing Ukrainians

an exclusive statement omitting non russians killing Ukrainians in Ukraine.
Soldiers are in Ukraine killing Ukrainians. This now includes the Ukrainian soldiers who also kill Ukrainians in Ukraine.

Now the broad opinion of the world is to overlook the soldiers killing Ukrainians, if those soldiers are themselves Ukrainian.
The only aggressors in their selective perspective are the soldiers from Russia.

So, let's remove Russia by some means. Does the killing of Ukrainians stop because the Russians are now vacated?
Maybe. But you'll have to explain to me why, if you think so. My money is on Ukrainians continuing to be killed by their own government, or paramilitary groups operating in the various oblasts.

Alternately, let's compromise with Russia, and allow the sectors of Ukraine who desire Russian control to be returned, and also recognize the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk. The country is already divided and has been separated for years, let's finalize the divorce.
Does the killing of Ukrainians stop?
I think it is more likely to decrease under this scenario, as the roots of the war are being attended, and we all know about bad roots.

I'll speculate that even though you think you are supporting the "People of Ukraine", you are actually supporting the "Government of Ukraine".
You support the entity which was the initial dealer of death to the "civilians of Ukraine".
I'll also speculate that when a Ukrainian Civilian has a bomb dropped on their home, the sender of the bomb is an enemy regardless of his origin.

[roller24]

Seceding to create a new state within an existing one cannot be done unilaterally. Not without a lot of bloodshed at any rate. There are copious historical citations that support this hypothesis.

The bloodshed started before the election in this case. The election was an attempt to leave Ukraine control, because they were doing the bombing.
Edit: I'm wrong the bombing started after the Donetsk separation.
We are continuing to see that blood shed now, it did not start flowing on 2/24/22.
So we have a small political geo, that was being obliterated by an oppressive regime. They claim their independence and are willing to keep fighting their oppressors. But now they fight for their own destiny, not merely their earthly existence. They did this in a truly democratic fashion with more than majority support from it's occupants.
France joined the colonies when the united States was shedding blood. Were they considered unprovoked invaders?

[Intrinsic]

Well Russians helping out Donetsk must mean genocide and terrorism first. Such buetiful help. Such glorious freedom.

[rSin]

more horseshit


russia could have and at any any moment COULD END basic services the whole of the country relies on.

they havnt.

they could have wiped ukraine off the map had the decided to wage war against the poor citizens subject to their imperial dictators

they havnt



western allies pretending this is an actual WAR are fool

[roller24]

I'm watching a VICE news series which covers Ukraine for the last 9 years.
The journalist isn't friendly to Russia, and tends to favor the west, but there are very few omissions.
I think it provides a good chronicle for anyone who wants a boots on the ground experience.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Dk2em ... &index=120

[Jesús Malverde]

more horseshit


russia could have and at any any moment COULD END basic services the whole of the country relies on.

they havnt.

Actually the RussFed has spent a large and largely irreplaceable portion of its long-range missiles explicitly targeting Ukraine's electrical grid to wipe it out. It didn't work, not because of any restraint or lack of effort, but because they simply don't have enough of that type of weapon to destroy the infrastructure faster than Ukraine has been able to effect repairs and restore the system. Streetlights in Kharkiv are back on for the first time since the war began and Ukraine is now linked up with the EU grid and is ready to actually net *export* to that EU grid.

The Russians have held nothing back, they just lack the capability and resources to do what they want. Paper tiger.

[Intrinsic]

more horseshit


russia could have and at any any moment COULD END basic services the whole of the country relies on.

they havnt.

they could have wiped ukraine off the map had the decided to wage war against the poor citizens subject to their imperial dictators

they havnt



western allies pretending this is an actual WAR are fool

Pray tell what basic services? Services that their allies and neighbors to the West won't Supply?
The basic service and not having a fusion bomb dropped on your street

Edit: ditto haysus

[rSin]

water, power

[dill786]

bakhmut is a wasteground

[dill786]

Putin’s Army decimates U.S.-made HIMARS, GLSDB bomb in Ukraine; Russia ramps up ammo production