Anti-vaxx Chronicles

[Intrinsic]

here in the USA the pandemic is a Health crisis, you guys are talking like it's a choice or something like the War on Drugs, prohibition, born black or one's not allowed to smoke cigarettes on the left side of the street on Tuesday. It is not.

The unvaxxed are highly potential (inevitable) carriers and vectors of a deadly pandemic disease. Hell yes they should be excluded, their choice, their exclusion.

The thing is it's just not just personal consequences paying for medical care. What
has happened, as we now know, the Freedom lovers clogged up the hospitals and when people whom were responsible and vaxxed get noncovid sick or accidents they can't always get medical care, unvaxxers have proven to be breeding grounds for more dangerous variants, forcing yet even more mask necessity for the responsible vaxxed, driving up health insurance cost for everybody else. ... ect. I'm all for personal freedom but if your freedom threatens me or mine I'll go through you like a door and hold you down and Jab you myself. My choice. There is no law or mandate that you have to take the covid jab. One big HUGE fukin lie. Tho Mandated one still have to act responsible in public. Masks for life or vaccinate, personal choice in a Health crisis. And then we got the idiots spreading bullshit misinformation since day one. They're the ones why a federal Mandate exist at all. Anti-vaxxers only brought it upon themselves. Sure wasn't the fault of the majority, yanno vaccinated Americans.

Fwiw worth I am100% dyed-in-the-wool Pro polio vaccine mandate. Anyone who's not is a goddamn idiot.
Fucking anti-vaxxers they want to have their cake and eat it too, all at my and mine's heath expense, killing my friend. For what? To attend indoor concerts and haircuts? fuck that.

This is America god dammit and the majority of people are for covid-19 vaccine/mask mandates in school/work places. You don't need the law or Mandate, that's what the majority of we the people have already decided.
I know the Beau of the Fifth Column's video i posted above was philosophical, requires thinking, but it's worth a listen to imo. /rant

[Prawn Connery]

What has happened, as we now know, the Freedom lovers clogged up the hospitals and when people whom were responsible and vaxxed get noncovid sick or accidents they can't always get medical care, unvaxxers have proven to be breeding grounds for more dangerous variants,

Agreed. Non-vaxxed people who get sick when they could have avoided it do clog up the health-care system, potentially denying medical treatment to others with non-covid related illnesses. As I said, there's an ethical argument as to whom whom should pay and whether those who choose their own consequences should be denied medical treatment or placed in a queue.

The problem with that argument is we don't deny other people with self-inflicted injuries the right to hospital care.

Should racing-car drivers be denied hospital treatment? Professional footballers? Soldiers? Stuntmen and women? Drug overdosers? Reckless drivers? Boxers and MMA fighters?

Where do you draw the line? All the people above take risks and many of them end up in hospital. We don't deny them medical treatment.

If you are vaxxed, how does someone who is not vaxxed deny or impinge upon your freedoms? The vaccine offers protection, and it does appear to slow transmission. But it's not a silver bullet. It's not comparable to polio or other vaccines that really do prevent you from being infected and in some cases can eliminate the virus altogether.

You seem to forget that the whole premise for the "War on Drugs" was harm minimisation – just like Covid vaccines – so it is certainly not a long bow to compare the two.

[Intrinsic]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not tring to denying the anti-vaxxers hospital care. I don't see how you got that from what I wrote ????

Restricting the unvaxxed where they can potentially spread a deadly horrible disease such as indoor events, libraries restaurants, bars... furthermore they are not actually denied any access. they must simply comply the health procedures: wear a mask, keep distance, self isolate two weeks after. Yanno like we all in America have been doing since the lockdown or should have been doing already. They're not getting any special restrictions then we all had before the vaccine. Yet because of a still high population of unvax here we vaxxed now have the some of same restrictions as they have, once again.
Jeez I thought the whole clogged up hospital system would have been obviously enough of restriction on me as vax from the unvaxxed. BTW it's not potential people being denied access and Hospital's simply there are not enough staff and they're overworked. People have died, suffering now, has been happening and it still happening here. In Idaho alone it got so bad people had to go out of state at their own expense ecause of the unvaxx, since the unvaxx are now 90%+ of covid hospitalization Not theoretical or potential.

A group of unvax and unmask restrict my freedom and threaten my and mine, once again now I need to wear a mask and make sure all my family and little ones keep their masks on in public. Cuz the unvaxx spreading the Delta variant. I can't go to library anymore because they had to shut it down again because our town had another wave of Covid, in a mostly unvax town. It had opened but the unvax continued irresponsibility got it closed again. Ya mean Like that prawn. I guess you mean other than threatening my and family's life being potenential carriers of a deadly airborne disease. I've already have lost. Most Americans have had personal loss.

By the way.
I wear a mask to protect you,
you wear a mask protect me.
Fwiw.

Have you looked at the difference in the numbers between America and Australia, you guys got it great relative to us after a disastrous leadership. It may not feel as pressing to you.

[Prawn Connery]

Vaxxed people can also get Delta. They can also spread it. Being vaccinated may reduce the incidence and offer more protection, but you are not going to wipe out Covid 19 any more than we have wiped out influenza.

So I really don't understand why you think unvaxxed people are such a big threat. Apart from what we've already outlined in terms of clogging up health care systems. Why not just let people choose whether to get vaccinated or not and get on with life? If you vaccinate yourself, you've already done your bit to protect yourself.

[Butcher Bob]

The whole point of getting vaccinated is to protect oneself from others who aren't...

Close, but not quite correct. That would be the logical conclusion. However, the reality is...
The whole point of getting vaccinated is to <lessen the severity of the illness, and reduce the chance of death>.
This is one of the points Intrinsic is in denial aboot...the vaccinated contract and spread the virus just like the unvaccinated, but hospitalizations and deaths are reduced. He would rather have someone to blame, because he thinks it is politically expedient. Do you think he started this thread because he is concerned with society's health?...or because he thought it would be good way to belittle those he views as "Trumpers"?
He uses confirmation bias in selecting sources to back his view of "herd immunity". Oops, looks like one of those sources is slipping again...

CDC backs away from its COVID-19 ‘herd immunity’ goal
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/11/cdc- ... -goal.html

But those of us that apply critical thinking, know that ideology went out the window a while ago...

Vaccinated or not, everyone is likely to get COVID-19 at some point, many experts say
'The idea that we’re going to live our lives without ever getting it is a fantasy — and a dangerous one,' says one epidemiologist
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/10/03/v ... perts-say/

This is something Dr. Malone pointed out quite some time ago...Dr. Campbell pointed out...the WHO acknowledges...and even Biden's director of covid response has stated...



But because Intrinsic can not counter the science, he tries to criticize the messenger.

Funny thing is, despite any faults Dore has, he provides sources so you can check for yourself.

[Intrinsic]

This is one of the points Intrinsic is in denial aboot...the vaccinated contract and spread the virus just like the unvaccinated, 

no they don't. Not just like, not even close.. if vax, less chance of getting infected, shorter time, and a lower viral load. If unvaxx approximately 10 times worse in all categories. Why you think the hospitals here are so filled with unvax for covid, almost exclusively? Why counties like mine with a low vaccinations rate keep seeing increases and cases. And yet my in brothers County on the coast with a high vaccination rate, don't see waves at all?



..

[Butcher Bob]

Did you get that idea from the CDC?

Because the numbers do not support it...
viewtopic.php?p=172403#p172403

[Intrinsic]

Vaxxed people can also get Delta. They can also spread it. Being vaccinated may reduce the incidence and offer more protection, but you are not going to wipe out Covid 19 any more than we have wiped out influenza.

So I really don't understand why you think unvaxxed people are such a big threat. Apart from what we've already outlined in terms of clogging up health care systems. Why not just let people choose whether to get vaccinated or not and get on with life? If you vaccinate yourself, you've already done your bit to protect yourself.

Sorry not sure if I can make it clearer. you might have case in your argument when all the youngins in my extended family are vaccinated. Or there weren't friends of mine who can't get vaxxed, medical reason. Or maybe if the unvax would wear masks. You see, everywhere I go here in town there are covid infected people walking around going inside without masks. always, everyday with whatever new variant they're vectoring. I don't like it and I don't think I should have to put up with it. It's a horrible disease.

[Intrinsic]

Did you get that idea from the CDC?

Because the numbers do not support it...
viewtopic.php?p=172403#p172403

Nope the real world. pay attention. Or for Once give it a shot and answer the questions.

[Butcher Bob]

You are convoluting the point again. Of course more non-vaxxed are hospitalized and die, because that is the benefit of getting vaxxed...less hospitalization and death. But you are trying to say the numbers in that study show vaxxed folks do not contract and spread...which is the opposite of what it shows.