WHAB: Still Forming Woodworking Shop & Future Grow Residence

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WHAB Future Grow Residence Soon...Warts & ALL...

Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

I didn't see these items when I loaded the trailer. I saw this box. I saw briefly what was in this box, after I got the rims out. The rims were on the end of the trailer. This box was right next to the rims and obviously soaked through and has me really concerned for the other boxes and 2 cabinets I have laying on their backs on the trailer. Everything else is water resistant.
Trailer Load 0002 01262021.png
Environs has inhibited devoted unloading - that and I only just now figured out what 'might' work. If it doesn't (Continuous Improvement), I'll try something else.

Here's the weather for the next few days, tomorrow colder than today :frown:
Temps Trailer Emptying 0001 01262021.png
This is me figuring it out... :winky:

This is where I bed down.
Trailer Load 0007 01262021.png
Trailer Load 0008 01262021.png
I don't have my bed here, it's in storage. It's a double sized Captains Bed (storage underneath). Not sure it would fit anywhere here in that portion of the main space devoted to residing :winky: Partly because how the loft is constructed. There are posts within the field/space under the loft. Likely to provide extra support for the loft floor joists but they're 2x6s with 12 inch spacing and I would think that span does not exceed a 2x6 span loads. Before tonight I was considering putting the bed (mattress - ready to build Red Oak bed frame; two potential options; build it with rough cut wood without milling any of the sides; or waiting to get my machines next month) up on the loft and grow everything under the loft. It's foot print maybe large enough for my bed IF I move the 3 posts to the wall, though.

But, thinking of flowering in a space 70 inches tall doesn't make a whole lot of sense when I have a spacious attic space with primarily wooden gable ends from which to exit any grow system operations. I haven't measured the height of the attic, but a guess would be approximately 144 inches (twice the height under the loft. The roof is 12/12, with most of if covering a 30 foot wide building (whatever the math is, I have not researched it)).

I can pop seeds or clone up on the loft (60 inches tall) (I'll build some walls up there on top of the knee wall that's already there (2 sided). Then it will up the Modified Ship's Ladder, a stop at the seed popping/clone starting a vegetative space, the up what will be an attic ladder up to the flower space. I'll post what I have to work with very soon.

It rained very hard yesterday. Freezing today. Cardboard boxes on horizontal surfaces catching rain is never good.

After I removed the rims I in part made the trip to the storage unit for...
Trailer Load 0001 01262021.png
*I just now noticed while reviewing this image that it looks like I only got 2 of the big hole rims I need. It was dark out in his boneyard. But, I kept asking - "Is it a big hole rim?" "Is it a big hole rim?". Dang it!!! That's what I guess I get for trusting a BIL for anything!!! :roflmao:*

I grabbed the box above.

I didn't see these items when I briefly scanned the contents of this box. I have been wondering ever since I loaded the trailer with what I thought was everything I needed, I wondered IF I'd ever find the 1000W horizontal socket and/or the pump for the hydroponic bucket system. When I looked deeper into the box right before I started composing this post I saw both of them. Included are a set of 400W MH and HPS bulbs (undoubtedly for the horizontal hood I loaded up). Oh, also in that box is a wall-hung oscillating fan, which from memory, was not easy to purchase (memory - subject to change :wink:). It may have been cost prohibitive at the time :confused: :grin:
Trailer Load 0004 01262021.png
Trailer Load 0005 01262021.png
Trailer Load 0006 01262021.png
So, as far as gear, I think I got it all.:woohoo:

Next is to get up in the attic and check things out. First on the list of using the attic as a flowering space is access. Much like the lack of access to the loft (straight up and tree house style ladder with its rungs TOO WIDELY spaced! Wow!!!) that I had to build the Modified Ship's Ladder there is no built-in access to the attic. It's only 60 inches tall but, that's too high a step for this high stepper!!! :toker1:)

I have looked at buying one online BUT, I don't have one in hand and I don't know by reading words if I can cut off the bottom of a manufactures Attic Ladder to fit in this space. It's difficult for me to buy something like that online IF I can't get a full sense of its form. I have seriously considered making one. However, right now, building materials are obscenely high. Common Studs were $7 to $9 each. OSB over $30+. And, again, right now, with the raw stock that I have on hand, if would be rough cut lumber. I can size it all day long, and I'm eager to show you all my setup. I can't face anything. I mean I have a No.7 Jointer Plane BUT, it was advertised as Great Condition and it has a broken mouth AND, that's a lot of work. I wouldn't mind committing to it IF I had a good hand tool method. I don't. My machines are weeks away and THEN they'll need to be cleaned up, waxed up and adjusted.

I found something at around $117 (memory) and that is pretty reasonable considering it comes with everything you'd need to build one, hardware...etc.

Then I have to install it. A final consideration to that end is the bottom chord of the roof trusses are on 24 inch centers WITH strapping perpendicular to the trusses about 24 inches on center that the ceiling panels are attached to. I likely won't be able to get 4x8 construction materials up there.

Side note: I have discussed wiring the shop with the electrician I had install the lighting (again, no ceiling lights in the obvious places one would consider normal to put lights :grin: ) BUT I also threw in some electrical wiring that 'may' seem odd except for in a woodshop. 20 and 30 amp dedicated circuits up in the attic. 20 amp or 30 amp dedicated circuits under the loft. A dedicated 30 amp circuit out the North West window (Dust Collection) and several 220V outlets around the perimeter of the shop area. Oh, and some 120V outlets out around the exterior, out of doors. Front deck is a concept at the point but IF I'm going to have an electrician here I am trying to think ahead.

The rims are for this.
Willys Wagon 0001 03172020.jpg
A 1962 Willys Wagon. It is the most rust free Willys Wagon I have ever seen. The last time I worked on it (a couple of years ago) the only rust on it were two small areas at the bottom areas behind the doors. These things are normally rust buckets. This one is not.

And, it's special in another regard. It has this.
2018-03-15_16-05-05(1).jpg
It is a 1962 6-230 Willys Wagon. It's the one with the single piece curved windshield. It has the 6 cylinder Tornado engine in it. The Willys Tornado engine was the first overhead cam engine mass-produced in North America. And, this one runs. Its smokes 'a little bit', and it lacks overdrive (I hope to address that in the future) but, other than that she was a runner when the fuel pump went out. I couldn't afford it at the time so it sat. In that time it's been in storage and, according to the diagrams I saw, its configuration, it's a unique fuel pump that's near $200 to replace (memory) from a "Willys" parts website (best price I could find, at that time). O'Reilly's seemed to carry one according to the diagram I studied but I didn't have the money at the time anyway. I got the fuel pump out of storage maybe 2 months ago(?). The Willys is on bad tires right now. Two go flat all the time. I don't want to put rubber on them because those rims are not made for this Willys. They took some stock rim and enlarged the hub hole with a cutting torch - literally. There was no way I was putting new rubber on those rims. I haven't have the money, and I didn't have the rims (they were in my BIL's boneyard). Now I have the Willys here. Now I have the fuel pump here. Now I 'thought' I had the rims here. Now I just have to come up with the scratch to put them all together. I have them all together EXCEPT for the parts in previous pictures, they're still in storage :wink:, I don't need them at this stage in the game. Another day, another trip! :grin: On top of all that. I don't have a hard flat surface here to do any of it. I have a gravel driveway. I'll have to do something about that. Not sure what, yet. I have been offered the use of a "Hoop-House". Just the frame. I'll have to come up with a covering for it. I have researched used billboard material. Advertising on one side, black on the other.

Man, this takes a long time! :toker1:

Spaghetti Sunday Monday leftovers Tuesday :winky: Then a :volcano:.

:puffpass:

:wave:,
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Post by bentech »

btw
therms are about 15 bucks and you could put several into that rig while your at it...


know the grill
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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

bentech wrote:btw
therms are about 15 bucks and you could put several into that rig while your at it...


know the grill
grumble grumble...
Hey there Ben! Good to see you, man! :smoke:

And, still, I'm not sure what you're talking about :grin:

What "therms" that cost approximately "$15" and put them in my what "rig"? I would really like to understand you, Ben...it may be beneficial to me.

Has the vernacular of *growing evolved that much that what you said is commonplace and the language has passed me by?

I'm not really sure if you're talking about the propane range or the future grow area or the Willys.

Part of that might be my fault in that there are many topics going on here... :frown: :facepalm: :grin:

IF you don't mind, Ben...could you further elucidate for me, please?

It really is good to see you around, Ben.

Stay cool, man! :tup:

Edit add: growing

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WHAB: Things Are Looking Up...

Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

Things are looking up! :toker1:

I couldn't wait. It's been a while since I had been up there. First note: I had the electrician install 2 light sockets (only one bulb up there right now), so he won't be surprised by my wanting to install electricity up there. I've acclimated him :grin:. I had those lights put on a switch where the entrance is now....that panel has been the access entrance since before I was here.
Looking Up 0001 01272021.jpg
Also note: In above image. When I made the Modified Ship's Ladder I needed a piece of wood for the face of the landing to attach that first step to. All I could find was the cutoff bottom of an antique door that is here. It was a perfect fit and sort of returned it to service, minor as it be. The rest if the door was being used horizontally as a partition. Who am I'm to question "Art" :laugh:

*excuse the items on the landing. Window weather trim, aCPAP machine bag and I'm not sure why the box is there. In storage last time I found my Sony Dream Machine (alarm clock). It's on the tread because at the point I was still contemplating putting my mattress up there. I'm bringing back the plug in electrical alarm clock! Who's with me?!?! :roflmao: I'm not sure if I'll actually use it...

Moving up...
Looking Up 0002 01272021.jpg
Looking Up 0003 01272021.jpg
Those treads were dadoed into the Modified Ship's Ladder to support the tread negating any need for any other method to support the tread...no cleats or no metal bar cross member. Cleats would have been easy. All those dadoes were less so :grin:. Those are the jigs I made to cut the Left and Right Angled Dadoes at the left of that first image at the first step and landing.

The loft as it was right then (I had just brought the step-stool up with me this trip), after my last post (before my response to Ben).
Looking Up 0004 01272021.jpg
Looking Up 0005 01272021.jpg
A temp storage right now. But, that is the original 1924 tongue and groove flooring, what remained of it. What was allowed to be destroyed by neglect! At least one of those boxes are empty, of course I'm keeping it - just in case! :crazy:

This is the opening where it is now. I'm pretty sure it's moving. There are added bits of lumber up there that is narrowing the 21 inch spaces between the bottom chord of the trusses. You'll also see here the lattice work strapping. Most of it, if not all of it, is original to the 1924 construction as it's what the tin ceiling was attached to. But, it does reduces possible openings to 21 x less than 21(?) openings without reworking some of that strapping and probably boxing in any area there above the loft in which to build a attic ladder.
Looking Up 0006 01272021.jpg
Then just popping my head up through the hole.
Looking Up 0007 01272021.jpg
Looking straight up from that same position. That is probably the original Cedar Shake Shingles. There is a metal roof on top of at least 2 composite shingle roofs then this roof under all that. It's hidden but it's still cool, in my opinion. IF I had the budget I'd take off those 3 more recent roof and at least see what the old shake looks like. From the bottom, it doesn't look that bad.
Looking Up 0008 01272021.jpg
Looking through to the other end from the current access opening.
Looking Up 0009 01272021.jpg
Continued...

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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

...

1/2 way through the access opening.
Looking Up 0010 01272021.jpg
Then while standing at the opening - a son of a gun to get into, btw! Tight and no proper way to climb up in there.

I'm just showing the construction of the space, but do note the attempt at "insulation". Reminder; 15 inch batts in 24 inch bays :facepalm:
Looking Up 0012 01272021.jpg
The other side of the center point... (West side)...
Looking Up 0013 01272021.jpg
Looking South on the West side.
Looking Up 0014 01272021.jpg
The both sides of the East side gable end, the one with the chimney.
Looking Up 0015 01272021.jpg
Looking Up 0016 01272021.jpg
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Next are two of the same shot, one with flash one was not.

This is crazy! Those are Dirt Dauber nests. Hundreds of them. I don't remember that many of them the last time I was up there...

I need to get that fascia up, those dirt daubers have to be evicted.

Last year there were at least a hundred corpses in the vestibule. It seems like the suicide en masse. I understand that they are in the "Wasp" family, but they never bothered me except with their numbers and having to clean up the bug-land version of cadavers. Hundreds and hundreds of them, just drop out of the air and mass suicide :crazy:
Looking Up 0017 01272021.jpg
Looking Up 0018 01272021.jpg
So, with that, I'm open to ideas, criticisms or otherwise good banter :winky:

I think I'll have to move those angled supports after I frame in other vertical ones to replace them just to get some squared up and more usable space.

I did measure the height. It is 10 feet 9 inches from the top of the bottom chord to the peak. I failed to measure what the width would be without those angled braces in the way. There is 48 inches in between those angled braces, which should be approximate what any new support put in its place would be. That space is 30 feet long.

I wanted to put a room up there, like a bedroom, when I first got in here but, I don't want to put that much weight up there. A flowering room and a bit of storage I think is a better plan.

I'd like to keep the reservoir in the veg space, gonna be less heat generated there. And, maybe under the loft, in an even cooler spot. I do have that portable air conditioner I'd be willing to give up my comfort for that of my medicine! Once that space is converted to a flowering space it should work great for that. It is a 14,000BTU Heat Pump (500sf unit).

Some obstacles: That space needs to be insulated, properly. That fascia needs to be replaced (I thought I bought fascia, not I have 110+bf of whatever I can make of it, I have a few ideas). My space should be air conditioned, I have my eye on one...I'm saving my pennies for. It is a Cassette type of Mini-Split. It needs to the ceiling near the center of the living space. I don't know how that will conflict, if at all, with a flowering space up there. I'm pretty sure one could go this way a bit and the other can go the other way just a bit - shouldn't be a big deal, I don't think.

I need the electrical done before any of the others can get done. Order of process/procedure is necessary! Things done when they need to get done and not sooner or later which would cost extra money and time.

I have the electrician on the wire...just gotta make the call. This would be side-work for him as he has a steady job, so we'd have to make arrangements...but he was very prompt in getting here when he said he would be here and stuck with it until he was done. I even offered to pay him to the hourly rate we agreed on if he'd like to leave for an hour long lunch. Good hard workin' dude!

It cost me about $1000 to install the lights, including the 2 attic lights and that hardwired (motion detection) porch light....that's materials and an hourly rate of $20 (which a freakin' steal today). No outdoor lights here when I got here, not even a porch light :grin: She did have battery powered lights around the interior and solar lights on the ground. None worked when I moved it....they were just debris laying about.

I am open to suggestions and ideas, IF you're so inclined....I'd appreciate it!

Oh, I almost forgot. Insulation: 15 inch batts in 24 inch bays or NOT EXISTING at all :facepalm: :crazy:. Those last 2 bays on the South end of the 30 foot long section (it is East to West and is about 26 foot wide right there, that accounts for the inside corners seen in the exterior pictures) have no insulation at all. There are a few extra 15 batts laying about unopened. While I'm sure they didn't just realize what an utter waste of time and money it was at that point and quit or something else - I don't know. It is what it is.
Looking Up 0019 01272021.jpg
Looking Up 0019 01272021.jpg (1.59 MiB) Viewed 1261 times
Looking Up 0020 01272021.jpg
:puffpass:

Good morning...I'm outtie!

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Post by Oldjoints »

Obviously your roof was sagging and why those 45 degree supports were installed. What I have done in that situation is to install a 2x10 halfway down those rafters horizontally using long screws. This will tie all the rafters together. You will still have a few 45 degree supports but much less of them and supported better by bracing your new supports to the 2x10. Leave the existing supports in or as many as possible until you install your supporting system.
Hope this helps....

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Post by Butcher Bob »

WhiteHotAfterburner wrote:Looking straight up from that same position. That is probably the original Cedar Shake Shingles. There is a metal roof on top of at least 2 composite shingle roofs then this roof under all that. It's hidden but it's still cool, in my opinion. IF I had the budget I'd take off those 3 more recent roof and at least see what the old shake looks like. From the bottom, it doesn't look that bad.
WhiteHotAfterburner wrote:I think I'll have to move those angled supports after I frame in other vertical ones to replace them just to get some squared up and more usable space.
Those cedar shingles aren't any good any more...they didn't go over them because they went out of style.:p
That's a lot of weight on that roof. In a perfect world you'd peal all them layers off and replace with a nice standing seam, hidden fastener metal roofing. Makes a perfect opportunity to address any structural issues. Be careful with the angled framing. It would appear they are not simply wedged between the joist and rafter, but rather they are nailed to the sides of the joist and rafter. If it were wedged between, that would be simple load transference, which would require support under the joist where it attaches. Nailing them on the sides, on both sides of the peak, effectively creates a truss to cover the entire span. Doesn't mean the space can't be opened up...just something to take into consideration. Hate to say it, but you could alleviate a lot of the structural concern if you took a bunch of weight off the roof. :whistle:

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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

Oldjoints wrote:Obviously your roof was sagging and why those 45 degree supports were installed. What I have done in that situation is to install a 2x10 halfway down those rafters horizontally using long screws. This will tie all the rafters together. You will still have a few 45 degree supports but much less of them and supported better by bracing your new supports to the 2x10. Leave the existing supports in or as many as possible until you install your supporting system.
Hope this helps....
Hello friend :wave:!

Sorry for delayed response. It seems I spent most of the day in bed without intending to :crazy:

I'm not so sure about "sagging" as without those 'few' angle braces there would only be 3 pieces to the roof truss. 2 roof rafters and 1 bottom chord. That doesn't make sense in my head - no offense.

To my knowledge, only kindergartners build roof truces with just 3 stick lines :roflmao: .

I think they are poorly engineered replacement trusses.

I do know the place was re-roofed by the former owner and his friend. They were both in their 80's when they re-roofed the place. I do not know for sure, but I suspect they also re-trussed the place. That does make sense to me.

Excuse my Kindergartner type stick drawing here :roflmao: but I literally just whipped it up and I haven't invested the time into learning SketchUp. I am CAD CAM certified. I don't own any CAD CAM programs.

***Those 5' 6" and 9' 6" dimensions are hard dimensions. I was up there twice to make sure they were accurate. I put a nail in the truss where they meet each other so I could get an accurate measurement from side-to-side. I don't have anyone to operated the dumb end of the tape measure so I put nails in place to hook the tape***
Flower Room 0001 01282021.jpg
Using my childish sketch, could you draw on top of that what you're considering, please?

I'm going to work on some sketches and see what I can come up with, but I defer to your experience and would like to see what your typing.

Whatever I do up there I will build it in place before I remove any of the existing structure.

I did not measure the width at the theoretical 6' or 7' ceiling levels. I will at some point. I'm thinking IF I can get to a 8' wide ceiling at whatever height that turns out to be that would reduce labor on my end (maybe).

Before I cut a hole for the future attic ladder I only have a maximum 24 inch gap into which pass materials.

I did fully scope out where it might go. One reason I made the trip up there last night was because I couldn't remember the 22-1/2 inch space between the bottom chords (ceiling joists) I measured was in fact 22-1/2 inches :grin: . It is. That is the minimum "rough opening" size for a typical attic ladder.

Right here at about the edge of the South riser of the Ship's Ladder and starting at just this side of the trim near the light.
Looking Up 0023 01272021.jpg
Once I do cut an opening for the attic ladder I'll have an approximately 22-1/2 inch x 54 inch opening through which to pass materials.

I did buy a critical product to any woodworking shop or grow space or residence where you value its occupants - I great lock set.
Schlage F51A ACC 619 Lever Knob.jpg
And, more importantly, I bought a Schlage B62 Double Cylinder Grade 1 Deadbolt to go with it (keyed alike).
Schlage B62 Double Cylinder Grade 1 Deadbolt.jpg
I've been playing a silly game and not properly securing this place before today with a cheap kwikset type of doorknob lock.

With the Double Cylinder deadbolt a thief can spend all the time they want piling things at the door preparing to leave with their loot but, when they go to leave they can't get out without having the key to unlock the deadbolt from the inside. They're not leaving the place with the loot they had just spent time piling up at the door.

Thank you, Oldjoints...for your input, it is appreciated! I really would like to see what you're thinking, please? :tup:

:smoke:

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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

Butcher Bob wrote:
WhiteHotAfterburner wrote:Looking straight up from that same position. That is probably the original Cedar Shake Shingles. There is a metal roof on top of at least 2 composite shingle roofs then this roof under all that. It's hidden but it's still cool, in my opinion. IF I had the budget I'd take off those 3 more recent roof and at least see what the old shake looks like. From the bottom, it doesn't look that bad.
WhiteHotAfterburner wrote:I think I'll have to move those angled supports after I frame in other vertical ones to replace them just to get some squared up and more usable space.
Those cedar shingles aren't any good any more...they didn't go over them because they went out of style.:p
That's a lot of weight on that roof. In a perfect world you'd peal all them layers off and replace with a nice standing seam, hidden fastener metal roofing. Makes a perfect opportunity to address any structural issues. Be careful with the angled framing. It would appear they are not simply wedged between the joist and rafter, but rather they are nailed to the sides of the joist and rafter. If it were wedged between, that would be simple load transference, which would require support under the joist where it attaches. Nailing them on the sides, on both sides of the peak, effectively creates a truss to cover the entire span. Doesn't mean the space can't be opened up...just something to take into consideration. Hate to say it, but you could alleviate a lot of the structural concern if you took a bunch of weight off the roof. :whistle:
Hey BB :wave:!

I understand about the cedar shakes. It was just an exercise in idle rumination :grin:. Just wondering what the original did look like when it was covered by composites :tdn:.

And, yes, a lot of weight on those under-engineered trusses. In a lot of large cities there is a two layer limit (I think it is two layer), once you have to re-roof after that the previous layers have to come off.

And, yes...in further ruminations, I have thought about re-roofing the place. I can't afford anything like that.

As I just pointed out to Oldjoints, I know two 80 year old men re-roofed the place. I suspect they also erected the trusses, I do not know that for sure but looking at them they are not engineered trusses, that much I'm sure of.

Great point on the "side nailed" supports! Thank you! Excellent point! I will make sure to wedge the new supports in place and even gusset them on both sides, AND I'll even go one step farther and redo ALL the other angle supports up there! Excellent point!!!

Do you care to illustrate what you would do with the dimensions I provided? I am very interested!
Flower Room 0001 01282021.jpg
:rollitiup:

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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

I just came up with this.

Understand, the height and width are just starting points. They are, at this point, general in nature. They're all I could measure on that trip up there. I will refine the measurements as I go. In fact, I am going to bring up a piece of lumber I know is 8 feet long and see how it fits in the space and see what dimensions that creates.

Also, I had considered removing that center board (peak support) lumber until reading your, Oldjoints and ButcherBob comments! :laugh:

I thought "man, it's going to be difficult growing in a room with all these center supports in place" :crazy:

But, after reading the comments I do think it is possible IF engineered correctly. Whatever I do, I'm sure it will be better engineered than what was done by the previous octogenarian builders! I do give them serious props for getting up on a 12/12 roof to do anything! :tup:

Anyway, what you all think?
Flower Room 0002  01282021.jpg
Green and Red are new materials.

All comments are welcome!

:smoke:,
WHAB

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