WHAB: Still Forming Woodworking Shop & Future Grow Residence

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Going back a bit...

I just spoke with the electrician. Specifically relating to upgrading the loft circuit to 30 amps, 30 amps to the attic ...and a 220V circuit on the South and West wall (window wall). I requested a estimate for that, then a estimate without the 30 amp attic circuit.

Just FYI from my experience...
I ran dedicated circuits for grow equipment. Initially I started with one 20 amp, which handled a 1000w, a 400w, and fans. When I added another 1000w, no go. Tried just the two 1000w lights, on a staggered start, no go...even though the plate info indicated I should be fine, just barely. Ended up running a second 20 amp line. At peak equipment, one line ran a 1000w and a 600w, and the other line ran a 1000w and all the fans.

If you're planning a woodshop, you might want to do an accounting of all your equipments' amperage draw. When I did that for my regular household stuff, the circuits started to have a much different appearance to me. I was forced into learning aboot that stuff when I had an issue with all my heavily used circuits on one pole, and all my rarely used circuits on the other pole...had to balance out the breakers.

Hey brother Bob!

Here is the 'rough estimate' the electrician provided me on Feb 13. This is the estimate before I knew for sure I was going to grow "legally". I asked him to break the rough estimate down to spread the cost out to smaller bites

"Dear X,

Here is a rough estimate to install the items you mentioned on the phone. Bear in mind I allowed $820.00 of that for parts, $450.00 is for wire alone. I think installation will go fairly quick so the labor may be less than what’s reflected in the estimate. So here is the worse case scenario break down:

1. Three 230 volt, 20 amp outlets. 2 on the west wall, 1 on the south wall. Parts and labor for each $240.00. Total $720.00.

2. One 30 amp 230 volt or 120 volt circuit in the attic. Parts and labor $350.00

3. One 30 amp 230 volt or 120 volt circuit in the loft. Parts and labor $350.00

Hope this helps! Have a great weekend!

Sincerely,
X"

In a response to a question I had about the above estimate he said he'd have to see the machines. I said we'll have to have him out, then. I will do that on or after the 1st.

I am going to do this all legit. I'm not going to under-size the electrical on anything. Not the woodworking side or the growing side. With the $1,420 rough estimate I will have to do it in more palatable chunks, though. All will be over-sized dedicated circuits. Thinking about it after I received the estimate I'm likely going to run 230V in the attic and convert my lights to it. I'll likely upgrade to 230V where it makes sense to. I'm not sure what I'll be running in the loft as far as growing but if 230V makes sense I'll upgrade there as well. I think (I'm pretty sure) we talked about running 230V wire and not use the 4th wire. IF the cost is going to be the same than I'll do that and then it will be there if I or the next resident ever need it.

That estimate does not include some of what we have previously discussed; a switched light I need under the loft, upgrading the lighting in the bathroom, putting the DIY 2 Stage Delta 50-850 Dust Collector system out the window on the West wall, or outdoor electric at a few locations (primarily for a deck out the front door I hope to build).

Oh, btw, it's an under-used 200 Amp service.

I'm not entirely sure what your "all my heavily used circuits on one pole, and all my rarely used circuits on the other pole" is alluding to. Did my response address your ideation?

I appreciate the input and conversation, my friend!

Regards ,
WHAB

[bentech]

little electrical secret

romex comes in 14 or 12x2 most often, but
you can buy it in 14/3 or 12/3 or 10/3 as well

those cables have ground white black and red

the black and the red are seperate hots, hooked up to the seperate poles in a residential main paneltheysave a bit of power as the neutral [white wire ] only carries the DIFFERENT in the two hot legs use. ie, 10 amps on one and 14 amps on the other and the neutral only carries 4 amps

its a savings both in use and in the amount of copper you have to purchase to set up

and whab

residential electrical is WELL within your shown ability. you can wire all this up yourself AND can certainly run the wirings so if your interested id be happy to walk you through the details of wiring the boxes

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

little electrical secret

romex comes in 14 or 12x2 most often, but
you can buy it in 14/3 or 12/3 or 10/3 as well

those cables have ground white black and red

the black and the red are seperate hots, hooked up to the seperate poles in a residential main paneltheysave a bit of power as the neutral [white wire ] only carries the DIFFERENT in the two hot legs use. ie, 10 amps on one and 14 amps on the other and the neutral only carries 4 amps

its a savings both in use and in the amount of copper you have to purchase to set up

and whab

residential electrical is WELL within your shown ability. you can wire all this up yourself AND can certainly run the wirings so if your interested id be happy to walk you through the details of wiring the boxes

Great information, my friend, Ben! Thank you for that!

I readily admit, and have likely mentioned it here, residential wiring - due to my intermittent dabbling in it - is a weak spot in my repertoire of my at the ready abilities. I have no problem with 120V EXCEPT something like 3-way switching. I understand 230V but I just don't have enough experience with it do feel competent in its execution.

I have worked 120V in front of some people where they literally freaked out! (multiple instances of such - they just freak=the=hell out! Which I find endlessly comical! ) I sometimes don't bother to pull the breaker. It's only 120V that has coursed its way through this body plenty of times

My spinal injury caused more damaging electrical short-circuits than any residential 120V electric has.

I will, from this moment forward, deeply consider your most generous offer, Ben! Seriously. I have a thought at this moment that I'll accept the offer.

However, you, and everyone looking in should know.

The electrician I have used for the ceiling lighting (including 3-way switching) and moving some outlets (the one that was captured under and behind the Modified Ship's Ladder, for instance) is only charging a labor rate of $20 per hour. And, he allows me to help with the labor AND he keeps the cost down to a minimum on purpose knowing my circumstance. He also provided a detailed materials invoice and I know on the jobs he's done here he has subtracted from the invoice any materials not used and HE returned for refund.

I offered to pay him his labor rate to take a lunch. He declined.

The guy is awesome - up to this point in time.

Knowing all that above, I'm still considering your offer, Ben. Thank you!



High regards,
WHAB

[Slym3r]

By far the coolest journal ive read in two years of reading these!!!

[Butcher Bob]

Oh, btw, it's an under-used 200 Amp service.

200amp Service 0001 02192021.jpg

I'm not entirely sure what your "all my heavily used circuits on one pole, and all my rarely used circuits on the other pole" is alluding to. Did my response address your ideation?

In that panel you have two 120v bus bars that the breakers clip to. Single pole breakers, 120v circuits, clip to just one of them...double pole breakers, 240v circuits, clip to both. The only 240v circuits I have is one to an electric stove and one to an electric drier...everything else are 120v circuits. All of my heavily used 120v circuits ended up on one bus bar, and all my rarely used 120v circuits ended up on the other bus bar. That created a problem during periods of heavy draw, because it was drawing all the power through one side and none through the other. After mapping out the amperage draw of all the various household appliances, I was able to balance the draw from each bus bar by simply rearranging some of the breakers. Now during periods of high use, power is drawn more equally from both lines.

Guess I was questioning the use of 240v for the attic/grow area. All your grow equipment should be 120v. Unless you're putting a 240v machine up there, there's no reason for a 240v circuit. Even in your workshop area, I would only run 240v if specific machines need it, and I would run a dedicated circuit for each machine...like I have for my stove and clothes drier. You should be able to run 20 or 30 amp, 120v circuits for most (if not all) of your woodworking machinery.


•edit• Ben is indeed well versed in electrical...I too know a fair amount, having wired my whole house, from where it attatches to the power company's line at the weatherhead outside...you are in good hands my friend.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Oh, btw, it's an under-used 200 Amp service.

200amp Service 0001 02192021.jpg

I'm not entirely sure what your "all my heavily used circuits on one pole, and all my rarely used circuits on the other pole" is alluding to. Did my response address your ideation?

In that panel you have two 120v bus bars that the breakers clip to. Single pole breakers, 120v circuits, clip to just one of them...double pole breakers, 240v circuits, clip to both. The only 240v circuits I have is one to an electric stove and one to an electric drier...everything else are 120v circuits. All of my heavily used 120v circuits ended up on one bus bar, and all my rarely used 120v circuits ended up on the other bus bar. That created a problem during periods of heavy draw, because it was drawing all the power through one side and none through the other. After mapping out the amperage draw of all the various household appliances, I was able to balance the draw from each bus bar by simply rearranging some of the breakers. Now during periods of high use, power is drawn more equally from both lines.

Guess I was questioning the use of 240v for the attic/grow area. All your grow equipment should be 120v. Unless you're putting a 240v machine up there, there's no reason for a 240v circuit. Even in your workshop area, I would only run 240v if specific machines need it, and I would run a dedicated circuit for each machine...like I have for my stove and clothes drier. You should be able to run 20 or 30 amp, 120v circuits for most (if not all) of your woodworking machinery.

Ah, now I better understand! I didn't know the "bus bar" was called a "pole". Actually, I have run circuits. Mostly 120V. A few 240Vs. I do fully understand the process, I'm just not fluent in it.

I do fully understand what you're saying as far as mapping it out. I'm sure, without knowing what is in his brain, that's what he was referring to when he said 'I have to see it'.

I can run 230V Romex up there and use it for 120V work, right? I mean, IF in the future I need it it will be there already, right?

I do have plans to put an 36,000BTU Pioneer Cassette MIni-Split up there at some point - hopefully, as soon as I can. It will take care of my Summer needs, and then my next Winter needs. My plan (subject to change) is to have that done before I insulate the full space (will insulate under, over and around the Flower space I build up there), but insulating that space has to be done after I remove and replace the deteriorated Fascia up there. That's what I bought the (what I thought would be White Oak) Red Oak for only then finding out it is not best suited to the task.

And, yeah, I understand the breaker loads. There is a Tankless Water Heater here that runs on 2 dual 40amp breakers and the dryer runs on 1 dual 40amp breaker....and, now that you mention it, they, all 3, are on one pole.

I'll keep that in mind going forward!!! Thanks, man --- you and Ben!

Warm regards, my friend!

,
WHAB

[Butcher Bob]

I do have plans to put an 36,000BTU Pioneer Cassette MIni-Split up there at some point...

I would run a dedicated line for that.

There is a Tankless Water Heater here that runs on 2 dual 40amp breakers and the dryer runs on 1 dual 40amp breaker....and, now that you mention it, they, all 3, are on one pole.

Unless there is some seriously fuk'd up jerry rigging, that is not possible. Each pole is 120v...to get 240v you must draw from both poles.

The breaker panel is not divided into sides, where pole A is on the left and pole B is on the right. Instead it has alternating rows as you go down the panel...
Top row --> pole A
Second row --> pole B
Third row --> pole A
Fourth row --> pole B
...etc.
That way when a double breaker is installed, it is forced to pick up from both poles.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

I do have plans to put an 36,000BTU Pioneer Cassette MIni-Split up there at some point...

I would run a dedicated line for that.

There is a Tankless Water Heater here that runs on 2 dual 40amp breakers and the dryer runs on 1 dual 40amp breaker....and, now that you mention it, they, all 3, are on one pole.

Unless there is some seriously fuk'd up jerry rigging, that is not possible. Each pole is 120v...to get 240v you must draw from both poles.

The breaker panel is not divided into sides, where pole A is on the left and pole B is on the right. Instead it has alternating rows as you go down the panel...
Top row --> pole A
Second row --> pole B
Third row --> pole A
Fourth row --> pole B
...etc.
That way when a double breaker is installed, it is forced to pick up from both poles.

Ah, that better explains it! Thank you, my friend!

And, you're right. I just didn't word it correctly. I know that dual breakers like those used in a 240V breaker uses two spots in the panel....sort of like a jumper (also not the correct wording, I'm sure! ).

This guy is full-on legit. He is a commercial electrician by trade. He's been crazy busy in the age of COVID, commercially. What he does for me - and I know of him because my Niece used him - is over the top professional and his "side work" as he can fit it in to his real work schedule.

Thanks again, my friend, for the further elucidation! It is appreciated!

When is the next Pig Roast?

High regards, brother!,
WHAB

[Butcher Bob]

This guy is full-on legit.

Nothing wrong with using him...it is a good opportunity for cheap education.
Tell him to use you as his grunt when he's working there...pay attention to what he's doing...and ask any questions you may have. Before he comes, ask if there is anything you can do prior to his arrival that would help him. When he's around, keep him lubed up on food/beverage while working, and beer/weed (whichever his poison) after working...taking the opportunity to pick his brain for more knowledge.
You know how it goes...help him help you, and you'll gain a lot of knowledge in the process.

[Butcher Bob]

Pig roast.....that was a good time.

I've lost touch with everybody but you. Mudro got a job at Chrysler and moved away...ain't heard from him in years. Last I knew Hashcraver was still spending most of his time at the state capitol lobbying on behalf rec/med/hemp. Lost touch with Keenkutter when my e-mail account got closed. Hempkat got mad at me and disappeared. WPW may or may not be in prison...evidently he pissed a lot of folks off.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

This guy is full-on legit.

Nothing wrong with using him...it is a good opportunity for cheap education.
Tell him to use you as his grunt when he's working there...pay attention to what he's doing...and ask any questions you may have. Before he comes, ask if there is anything you can do prior to his arrival that would help him. When he's around, keep him lubed up on food/beverage while working, and beer/weed (whichever his poison) after working...taking the opportunity to pick his brain for more knowledge.
You know how it goes...help him help you, and you'll gain a lot of knowledge in the process.

That was our agreement the first time he did any work here. I explained my financial situation and he's been quite accommodating.

I get things, I grab things...as he needs them.

Most of what has been done here has been external installation, as in exterior of the wall (because it's not a stick built building), as in EMT conduit work - which he gets a grin on his face talking about it

My problem with learning any of this is I'll likely not use it again - even then, maybe for a very long time. I've learned it before. But, when time came to use it I had to relearn it again.

I could muddle through it and get it done BUT, there is a lot of work that would have to occur in the attic - lots of up and down, up and down. And, that 'may' occur before I install the attic ladder. I'd like to have enough juice in the attic to run two lights to Flower under, IF possible. Therefore, I'd likely have him, at this early stage of thinking about it, rough-in the wiring where I plan to have walls and a ceiling.

And, I do plan to inform him fully what I'll be doing. Woodworking and Indoor Gardening. With that information I'm sure he'll know what to do.

In fact, at this stage in this Stat's MMJ Program, I'd be surprised if he hasn't wired a few up by now.

IF not, he may be more open to it, given the opportunity. I'm sure I could steer more "side hustle" to him in the future.

ALL that said, I may, in fact, wind up doing it myself - costs and budgets, and scheduling in consideration.

It would CERTAINLY take me a lot longer to get it done than paying the man $20 per hour to do it toot sweet!

Thanks, brother! ,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Pig roast.....that was a good time.

I've lost touch with everybody but you. Mudro got a job at Chrysler and moved away...ain't heard from him in years. Last I knew Hashcraver was still spending most of his time at the state capitol lobbying on behalf rec/med/hemp. Lost touch with Keenkutter when my e-mail account got closed. Hempkat got mad at me and disappeared. WPW may or may not be in prison...evidently he pissed a lot of folks off.

That is unfortunate. You'll have to fill me in on WPW privately, IF you're of a mind to. Sounds like he turned coats

Those are some handles I haven't seen in a very long time. It was a great couple/few days! Good peeps!

I'm surprised to hear you lost contact with Mudro. You guys were Buds!

Wasn't it Keenkutter's property we gathered at?

Hashcraver was a quite a character. I hope he is doing well and succeeding!!! Good on him!!!

Then, you. You were on my must meet list. Glad for the opportunity!

It's even cool just thinking about it, pondering it and discussing it.

I drive through there ALL the time now, on my way to my Cardiologist's offices. Heck of a drive! Beautiful to drive through, though!

I'd like to try to work something out. Maybe even here. But, I'll say now, knowing my brother, he likely would not approve. BUT, I could be wrong. It's a wonderful area well within reach of some pretty incredible outdoor activities for those so inclined.

Nice talking about it, my friend!



,
WHAB

[bentech]

those prices for dedicated circuits sounds very reasonable, but

shit man
that work is ENTIRELY inside of your own ability so id hate to see to spend good money watching someone do what you could

walked a half dozen overgrow members through installing dedicated lines

happy to help you too...

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

those prices for dedicated circuits sounds very reasonable, but

shit man
that work is ENTIRELY inside of your own ability so id hate to see to spend good money watching someone do what you could

walked a half dozen overgrow members through installing dedicated lines

happy to help you too...

While I am a metal worker of all sorts, I am not equipped to run EMT, for starters. Although, I 'think' I 'may' have seen a tubing bender in my brother's shop. He went crazy for auctions for a time and he's buried in "stuff" . I envy him in that regard!

The more we discuss it the more I am inclined!

If I were to make a layout could any of you create a shopping list for me?

Also, be mindful. I still have to build TWO grows-paces. BOTH will be extensive builds, one from scratch, one from just above scratch - in fact I'll have to redo a few things in the loft before I can build there and I won't build in the attic until all of your (all of yous) concerns are addressed ie supporting those 5 trusses I plan to modify with properly built headers on top of what I build to support them in the loft. That partition wall is a 'stud face' wall (don't know why!) and the 2 outlets on that stud wall partition are turned the wrong direction, in EMT, within that stud face wall (partition). I expect to start on the loft space after the 1st. I have that shopping list create and stored on a suppliers website. (I HOPE they're still available when I need them ).

And, that's without being on the receiving end of any curve-balls...as sure as you and I know will happen.

I'd be glad to have all the help any or all of you are willing to provide and be humbly thankful for it! This is going to be a huge endeavor! Only a little less than that with ANY help!

That's A LOT to do in a relatively short time!

Now, I have to go fetch water to flush a toilet I could sure use a shower!

Thanks, everyone!



,
WHAB

[Butcher Bob]

Going back a bit again...

...I dropped my AT&T "HotSpot" WiFi Internet - that was literally costing me a small fortune ...

I am now using HughesNet. There are not other alternatives out here. No one supports DSL or any other Internet connections - that is UNTIL Elon Musk's StarLink. I am on the list to get it when it comes online. Can't wait! Looks amazing! Even in the few areas where it is in use it looks amazing and it's not even fully online yet. And, way more affordable!

Don't know anything aboot that stuff personally...I got cable.
But your mention kept sticking in my head for some reason.
Then it dawned on me...one of the y/t channels I follow, just put up a Starlink review...

I didn't bother watching because it holds no interest for me...
...but recalling your mention, thought maybe you might be interested in it.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Going back a bit again...

...I dropped my AT&T "HotSpot" WiFi Internet - that was literally costing me a small fortune ...

I am now using HughesNet. There are not other alternatives out here. No one supports DSL or any other Internet connections - that is UNTIL Elon Musk's StarLink. I am on the list to get it when it comes online. Can't wait! Looks amazing! Even in the few areas where it is in use it looks amazing and it's not even fully online yet. And, way more affordable!

Don't know anything aboot that stuff personally...I got cable.
But your mention kept sticking in my head for some reason.
Then it dawned on me...one of the y/t channels I follow, just put up a Starlink review...

I didn't bother watching because it holds no interest for me...
...but recalling your mention, thought maybe you might be interested in it.

I put things off to watch his work ...Dude is awesome (and his family, too!)! I don't think I've missed an episode.

Watching him build his now home, that was intended to be his shop, while his shop that was intended to be his home stood idle yards away was excellent viewing. That his only help was on the gable ends was pretty darned incredible! His rafter tails was something anyone could do if they'd only take a moment to do it. Looks beautiful. Most people would walk by and not even take note of it. I'm not one of those people.

Coincidentally, speaking of going back!...

A few short hours ago...

Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:08 am ~ (ummm *got )

And, I said all that above knowing I just get THE message from Elon Musk!

I'd be willing to forego Starlink IF I can get my grow sorted out first! THE message I only received last night. A message I've been waiting on...

,
WHAB

I'm all over it as soon as I can---lots of demands on my meager monies (I signed a 2 year contract with HughesNet, which I would be responsible to fulfill). Even with that said, the cost of HughesNet AND the cost of Starlink together would still be cheaper than what I was paying for AT&T. Maybe by a couple hundred a month. No joke. I have proof.

I do appreciate the lookin' out, brother! Sincerely!

But, looking forward, honestly, I don't know when I'd be able to swing Starlink....no mater how much I ache for it...

Thanks again, man!



,
WHAB