CO2 Extraction

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CO2 Extraction

Post by Butcher Bob »

Dick Fein wrote:CO2 is the gas we breathe through our lungs and essential food for plants. This is why the oils extracted are,
in essence, a “safe liquid solvent.”
This is a false argument....I see it used aboot butane too..."the solvent is safe, so the final product is safe."
But that ain't necessarily true. Oxygen is safe...but many oxidized compounds are toxic. Folks tend to fergit that durin the extraction process, chemistry is occurring...molecular structure kin change. Whether CO2 would do such a thing, I don't know...but the possibility exists, it's not automatically safe.

I've seen pics of the distiller...beefy as fuk.

Greywolf might have the info yer lookin fer. :)

To me it seems like a good idea to use a non-volatile solvent, rather than a volatile one....but the cost of the necessary apparatus is likely a limiting factor.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by Intrinsic »

/nitpick
Oxygen is safe?
Oxygen is not too safe in general, it is corrosive stuff, we just happen to need it.
//

Not to deter from yer point.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by Dick Fein »

I think it will require a 3 chambered apparatus and a compressor to move the co2 through the plant material.
It doesn't have to be large but it could be if needed.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by Butcher Bob »

Took a quick look in the Cabana fer ya....snagged only wut seemed important...
Graywolf wrote:Super critical fluid extraction using CO2 requires about 31C/88F at a critical pressure of 72.9 atm/7.39 MPa/1072 psi.

That is well within the capabilities of Schedule 160 stainless pipe and a 3X safety factor, plus the pressure could be easily achieved starting with liquid C02 and just heating it.

I designed such a system, but put it on the back burner after reading the patents on the process, which suggest that in addition to soaking in super critical C02, they are pumping large volumes through the material. That complicates the process and adds significant cost.

I have recently been approached by a company that builds cryogenic systems, asking me to come out of retirement long enough to consult with them on one of their local inert gas reclaim projects, on equipment I designed and installed back in the day and am considering accepting and offering shared consulting as my recompense, rather than charging a fee.

What I can say at this point, is that it won't be cheap to build, but liquid CO2 is cheaper than gasoline, so solvent costs are low. It can also be recompressed, and refrigerated to reclaim it, if you don't wish to vent it to atmosphere. That adds significantly to the equipment and operating costs, though using cheaper liquid nitrogen to achieve both is easy enough and venting nitrogen isn't an environmental issue.

CO2 liquid will also extract cannabis oil without being in super critical state, though not as efficiently. That could be accomplished by using a section of well insulated stainless pipe with two chambers. One full of plant material and separated from the other by a filter.

You could pressurize the system with CO2 to about 150 psi, and then fill the lower container with liquid CO2. You could invert the pipe section as many times as you desired to soak and rinse the material in the upper chamber and then let it all return to the lower chamber. If you then released the pressure from the lower chamber through a Stellite (nickel/cobalt alloy) seated valve, the cannabis oil would be left behind in the lower chamber.

Depending on how the consulting proposal progresses, I will move this up in priority and report back on the progress. Until then, it is too damned expensive and the advantages questionable, given the efficiency of our BHO extraction and recycle system, as well as the pristine product it puts out.
pi wrote:The tamisium extractors are intended for use with butane. One of the ***'s was 'can your system be used using co2 as a solvent. The following is the reply....

***********************************

QUESTION; So this can work with co2 as well?

ANSWER; I would like to answer this question by explaining some of the reasons why we use Butane over CO2. CO2 is a chemical that goes from solid to gas without going into a liquid phase. In other words you are extracting with a gas, not a liquid. A sublimating solvent. This makes CO2 very hard and expensive to use as a solvent for extracting. Requiring many times more dense volumes of gaseous space to hold 1 volume of liquid CO2 even when compressed up to 1400 plus psi. Compress it to 10,000 psi and you may get 1 gallon of liquid to fit into 2-3 gallons of space. With all this pressure, efficiency is increased but at what price. The cost efficiency is traded away. Pressure has some negative side effects too. And it is very expensive and dangerous which requires a very high knowledge which is usually assumed you have when you purchase the equipment. Due to the danger and complexity required to run a SC System most manufacturers of SC equipment will not offer assistance past setting up your equipment.


CO2 also has a covalent bond and is not totally non polar which means for a CO2 extraction to become effective at extracting oils, you may have to add non polar flammable solvents to change its polarity or polarize the CO2 first. Back to butane and hexane etc.

Butane goes into a liquid very easy and requires far less volumes of space to send 4 gallons of liquid through 1 gallon of plant matter. As a matter of fact, you need 4 gallons of space to send 4 gallons of liquid through. It is a liquid and not a sublimating solvent like CO2. It is a simple straight line molecule with no isomers and is very non polar. These facts makes Butane a preferred solvent for extracting oils. CO2 is virtually a non condensable gas for all practical purposes and usually is just blasted into the atmosphere after use requiring you to buy more and more. Butane is an easy to condense gas and is easy to recover for reuse.

Both are non toxic gases but one is much easier to deal with than the other. Both evaporate more cleanly. One is non flammable but to be effective requires a mixture of flammable solvent most of the time. Butane is less flammable than the propane most people use when cooking over an open flame or the gas you use to cook on in your home. When butane is dropped below freezing, the container holding it can be opened and the liquid can be viewed inside. Much less volatile than people think. Volatility meaning rate of evaporation. Butane is extremely non-reactive which accounts for a more pure tasting product when dealing with consumables. CO2 can be somewhat reactive and can alter the taste to some degree which implies some reaction and additional compounds may be present. This could be due to the high pressures involved and are unavoidable but it is more likely due to the make-up of the carbon and oxygen atoms in the CO2 molecule and the way they react to other molecules in the plant extractions or plant matter.

Since we do not have to build 1 inch thick walls for all our solvent holding tanks like when using CO2, we can cut cost down considerably for the consumer. This allows many more people to jump on board and assist all of us in finding cures and producing medicine at a lower cost which makes distribution of some of the highest quality medicines available to more people.

You could use CO2 in our system as long as you don’t add more pressure to the system than butane would add under normal use. If you want to go above that, you would need another machine and much higher price tag and lot of instruction before you could use it safely and effectively. Most people will never fully understand the true capabilities of their extraction equipment. I will try my best to see that you know how to use ours and reach your fullest potential. We have a new system and must help our customers because there is no one else that can. Our success is dependent upon on your success.
organic alchemist wrote:Ive worked with co2 for awhile now and im really enjoying the extracts!!

i do low pressure runs at 350 bar /65 c and get a w/w yield of around 11% from buds with a solvent: feed ratio of 30:1

high pressure at 600 bar/ 90c yields around 20% w/w from buds and contains some chlorophyll. Much lower solvent:feed of around 15:1

There can be much more work done on fractionation to separate out some waxes which dont taste the best.
I find the lower pressure material is tastier with more "intact" terpenoids.
organic alchemist wrote:Hi, I sort of have a history with Eden labs bit this isn't there unit. That picture is From a benchtop scale 100ml vessel. It was about 80, 000us$ 7 years ago. There are cheaper small units avail now and if I had to get one I would go appliedseparations in allentown.

I'm actually looking at a Eden unit for a friend in toronto and I figure it will be around 70-80k $ . That's for a 5l , 5000 psi with extra extraction vessel.

I've been working with this technolOgy for 7 yrs and I can say you don't want to build your own! Unless you know a talented mechanical/ chemical engineer with a background in fluids. Of course you could copy designs from patents and papers etc. But it would take forever to work the bugs out and your safety is important. Well built units done to code are available and people have been working on this for 30+ yrs. This is one area where hobbyists may be limited.

I've never "whipped" my extract but it seems to be like some of the budders around and then ages to a hard golden translucent material.

Much more work to be done, but I can only sneak about 15g of bud into the little extractor every now and then.
Graywolf wrote:May I ask what pressures are you typically running at?
organic alchemist wrote:I've settled on 350 bar/5000psi and around 65c. There seems to be more intact flavor rather than high pressure. The last batch is the best I've had, very intense aromas.
Graywolf wrote:Cool! How much fluid (CO2) exchange or circulation do you provide and how long is your soak?
organic alchemist wrote:The pump runs around 200-400g liquid co2 Per minute when the tanks are full and warm. It takes about 3 kg to pressure up so that is the only " soak" period. Using about a 20-25:1 sol: feed ratio. The extraction is dynamic as the fluid flows through the herb and into a lower pressure separator where the good stuff drops out and the fluid carries on.
organic alchemist wrote:We do sometimes use a soak period for other extractions, with canna it's not necessary IMO as the compounds are readily soluble in the co2 without use of a modifier or co-solvent.

With the system I'm using there is no re-circulation of the solvent. It just flows out the roof while we collect the goodies. Bad for the environment ppl cry! About 10kg liquid co2 is used on a total run at this scale. A recycling system could be added but it would be expensive.
organic alchemist wrote:Ps. When I say liquid co2 I'm referring to the tanks and the pump, once that liquid enters the extraction vessel it reaches SCF conditions and shit gets real.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by bentech »

it had occured to me that reclaiming butane would be easier than co2
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Post by bentech »

When butane is dropped below freezing, the container holding it can be opened and the liquid can be viewed inside. Much less volatile than people think.
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Post by bentech »

Both are non toxic gases but one is much easier to deal with than the other. Both evaporate more cleanly. One is non flammable but to be effective requires a mixture of flammable solvent most of the time. Butane is less flammable than the propane most people use when cooking over an open flame or the gas you use to cook on in your home. When butane is dropped below freezing, the container holding it can be opened and the liquid can be viewed inside. Much less volatile than people think. Volatility meaning rate of evaporation. Butane is extremely non-reactive which accounts for a more pure tasting product when dealing with consumables. CO2 can be somewhat reactive and can alter the taste to some degree which implies some reaction and additional compounds may be present. This could be due to the high pressures involved and are unavoidable but it is more likely due to the make-up of the carbon and oxygen atoms in the CO2 molecule and the way they react to other molecules in the plant extractions or plant matter.
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CO2 Extraction

Post by Butcher Bob »

bentech wrote:Butane is less flammable than the propane...
Most butane has a sizable percentage of propane in it.
Butane is extremely non-reactive which accounts for a more pure tasting product when dealing with consumables. CO2 can be somewhat reactive and can alter the taste to some degree which implies some reaction and additional compounds may be present. This could be due to the high pressures involved and are unavoidable but it is more likely due to the make-up of the carbon and oxygen atoms in the CO2 molecule and the way they react to other molecules in the plant extractions or plant matter.
Polar vs Non-polar solvents.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by bentech »

Butane
The term may refer to either of two structural isomers, n-butane or isobutane (or "methylpropane"), or to a mixture of these isomers. In the IUPAC nomenclature, however, "butane" It is used as a petrol component, as a feedstock for the production of base petrochemicals in steam cracking, as fuel for cigarette lighters and as a propellant in aerosol sprays such as deodorants. refers only to the n-butane isomer (which is the isomer with the unbranched structure).

Normal butane is mainly used for gasoline blending, as a fuel gas, either alone or in a mixture with propane, and as a feedstock for the manufacture of ethylene and butadiene, a key ingredient of synthetic rubber. Isobutane is primarily used by refineries to enhance the octane content of motor gasoline

When blended with propane and other hydrocarbons, it is referred to commercially as LPG, for liquified petroleum gas.

It is used as a petrol component, as a feedstock for the production of base petrochemicals in steam cracking, as fuel for cigarette lighters and as a propellant in aerosol sprays such as deodorants.

Very pure forms of butane, especially isobutane, can be used as refrigerants and have largely replaced the ozone layer-depleting halomethanes, for instance in household refrigerators and freezers.

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CO2 Extraction

Post by sockme »

solventless hash in denver clubs has gotta be the best on earth right now.......its like the best bho shattesuper pure n clean.....dont know how they are making it mut its not just clean bubble or anything this shits amber amber like bho.....had some co2 extract its ok but kinda harsh smokin....how about hexane honey oil? not too bad! its stick as heck but ya fridge it when that happens too...I love hash but always just make froze dry sift with my lab sieve....butane n shit makes me feel like I'm making speed or something n I hate hiding shit from everyone......fuck that

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