WHAB: Still Forming Woodworking Shop & Future Grow Residence

[Oldjoints]

Obviously your roof was sagging and why those 45 degree supports were installed. What I have done in that situation is to install a 2x10 halfway down those rafters horizontally using long screws. This will tie all the rafters together. You will still have a few 45 degree supports but much less of them and supported better by bracing your new supports to the 2x10. Leave the existing supports in or as many as possible until you install your supporting system.
Hope this helps....

[Butcher Bob]

Looking straight up from that same position. That is probably the original Cedar Shake Shingles. There is a metal roof on top of at least 2 composite shingle roofs then this roof under all that. It's hidden but it's still cool, in my opinion. IF I had the budget I'd take off those 3 more recent roof and at least see what the old shake looks like. From the bottom, it doesn't look that bad.

I think I'll have to move those angled supports after I frame in other vertical ones to replace them just to get some squared up and more usable space.

Those cedar shingles aren't any good any more...they didn't go over them because they went out of style.
That's a lot of weight on that roof. In a perfect world you'd peal all them layers off and replace with a nice standing seam, hidden fastener metal roofing. Makes a perfect opportunity to address any structural issues. Be careful with the angled framing. It would appear they are not simply wedged between the joist and rafter, but rather they are nailed to the sides of the joist and rafter. If it were wedged between, that would be simple load transference, which would require support under the joist where it attaches. Nailing them on the sides, on both sides of the peak, effectively creates a truss to cover the entire span. Doesn't mean the space can't be opened up...just something to take into consideration. Hate to say it, but you could alleviate a lot of the structural concern if you took a bunch of weight off the roof.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Obviously your roof was sagging and why those 45 degree supports were installed. What I have done in that situation is to install a 2x10 halfway down those rafters horizontally using long screws. This will tie all the rafters together. You will still have a few 45 degree supports but much less of them and supported better by bracing your new supports to the 2x10. Leave the existing supports in or as many as possible until you install your supporting system.
Hope this helps....

Hello friend !

Sorry for delayed response. It seems I spent most of the day in bed without intending to

I'm not so sure about "sagging" as without those 'few' angle braces there would only be 3 pieces to the roof truss. 2 roof rafters and 1 bottom chord. That doesn't make sense in my head - no offense.

To my knowledge, only kindergartners build roof truces with just 3 stick lines .

I think they are poorly engineered replacement trusses.

I do know the place was re-roofed by the former owner and his friend. They were both in their 80's when they re-roofed the place. I do not know for sure, but I suspect they also re-trussed the place. That does make sense to me.

Excuse my Kindergartner type stick drawing here but I literally just whipped it up and I haven't invested the time into learning SketchUp. I am CAD CAM certified. I don't own any CAD CAM programs.

***Those 5' 6" and 9' 6" dimensions are hard dimensions. I was up there twice to make sure they were accurate. I put a nail in the truss where they meet each other so I could get an accurate measurement from side-to-side. I don't have anyone to operated the dumb end of the tape measure so I put nails in place to hook the tape***

Using my childish sketch, could you draw on top of that what you're considering, please?

I'm going to work on some sketches and see what I can come up with, but I defer to your experience and would like to see what your typing.

Whatever I do up there I will build it in place before I remove any of the existing structure.

I did not measure the width at the theoretical 6' or 7' ceiling levels. I will at some point. I'm thinking IF I can get to a 8' wide ceiling at whatever height that turns out to be that would reduce labor on my end (maybe).

Before I cut a hole for the future attic ladder I only have a maximum 24 inch gap into which pass materials.

I did fully scope out where it might go. One reason I made the trip up there last night was because I couldn't remember the 22-1/2 inch space between the bottom chords (ceiling joists) I measured was in fact 22-1/2 inches . It is. That is the minimum "rough opening" size for a typical attic ladder.

Right here at about the edge of the South riser of the Ship's Ladder and starting at just this side of the trim near the light.

Once I do cut an opening for the attic ladder I'll have an approximately 22-1/2 inch x 54 inch opening through which to pass materials.

I did buy a critical product to any woodworking shop or grow space or residence where you value its occupants - I great lock set.

And, more importantly, I bought a Schlage B62 Double Cylinder Grade 1 Deadbolt to go with it (keyed alike).

I've been playing a silly game and not properly securing this place before today with a cheap kwikset type of doorknob lock.

With the Double Cylinder deadbolt a thief can spend all the time they want piling things at the door preparing to leave with their loot but, when they go to leave they can't get out without having the key to unlock the deadbolt from the inside. They're not leaving the place with the loot they had just spent time piling up at the door.

Thank you, Oldjoints...for your input, it is appreciated! I really would like to see what you're thinking, please?



Regards,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Looking straight up from that same position. That is probably the original Cedar Shake Shingles. There is a metal roof on top of at least 2 composite shingle roofs then this roof under all that. It's hidden but it's still cool, in my opinion. IF I had the budget I'd take off those 3 more recent roof and at least see what the old shake looks like. From the bottom, it doesn't look that bad.

I think I'll have to move those angled supports after I frame in other vertical ones to replace them just to get some squared up and more usable space.

Those cedar shingles aren't any good any more...they didn't go over them because they went out of style.
That's a lot of weight on that roof. In a perfect world you'd peal all them layers off and replace with a nice standing seam, hidden fastener metal roofing. Makes a perfect opportunity to address any structural issues. Be careful with the angled framing. It would appear they are not simply wedged between the joist and rafter, but rather they are nailed to the sides of the joist and rafter. If it were wedged between, that would be simple load transference, which would require support under the joist where it attaches. Nailing them on the sides, on both sides of the peak, effectively creates a truss to cover the entire span. Doesn't mean the space can't be opened up...just something to take into consideration. Hate to say it, but you could alleviate a lot of the structural concern if you took a bunch of weight off the roof.

Hey BB !

I understand about the cedar shakes. It was just an exercise in idle rumination . Just wondering what the original did look like when it was covered by composites .

And, yes, a lot of weight on those under-engineered trusses. In a lot of large cities there is a two layer limit (I think it is two layer), once you have to re-roof after that the previous layers have to come off.

And, yes...in further ruminations, I have thought about re-roofing the place. I can't afford anything like that.

As I just pointed out to Oldjoints, I know two 80 year old men re-roofed the place. I suspect they also erected the trusses, I do not know that for sure but looking at them they are not engineered trusses, that much I'm sure of.

Great point on the "side nailed" supports! Thank you! Excellent point! I will make sure to wedge the new supports in place and even gusset them on both sides, AND I'll even go one step farther and redo ALL the other angle supports up there! Excellent point!!!

Do you care to illustrate what you would do with the dimensions I provided? I am very interested!

,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

I just came up with this.

Understand, the height and width are just starting points. They are, at this point, general in nature. They're all I could measure on that trip up there. I will refine the measurements as I go. In fact, I am going to bring up a piece of lumber I know is 8 feet long and see how it fits in the space and see what dimensions that creates.

Also, I had considered removing that center board (peak support) lumber until reading your, Oldjoints and ButcherBob comments!

I thought "man, it's going to be difficult growing in a room with all these center supports in place"

But, after reading the comments I do think it is possible IF engineered correctly. Whatever I do, I'm sure it will be better engineered than what was done by the previous octogenarian builders! I do give them serious props for getting up on a 12/12 roof to do anything!

Anyway, what you all think?

Green and Red are new materials.

All comments are welcome!

,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

For those looking in...

I just did what I said I would not do and submit application to Cultivate Medical Cannabis.

I got to thinking that IF I had full on, but within the legal limits, grow and the State did come visit me I would lose it all even though I have multiple qualification conditions...and complying within the allowable limits.

I just bit the bullet. I just completed the examination online. Except for my not being prepared - I only decided this afternoon to go ahead with ti - it went pretty smooth.

Great an very helpful staff. Very helpful. There is some cross-talk, especially digitally, at the ends of these confounded wires

I was on their website texting with staff. They were sending me emails at the same time that answered some of the questions I was discussing with staff online and I didn't see the emails until well after the fact

Then on my phone. Video conferencing AND texting

On the website, on emails, on video (on phone) AND texting on phone

Got it done, though.

Even through my unpreparedness, I was done within 2 hours (about an hour and a half).

https://elevate-holistics.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They were the most cost effective = least expensive I could find locally (even though it was all done digitally).

$75 for the medical evaluation. And $30 for their Full-Service Account Setup. They handle and submit all the forms that the state requires. They provided the Full-Service Account Setup to me for free. It is free for Veterans

They'll complete their end of the process in the AM, they said.

I still have to pony up $25 for the MMJ card. $25 annually

But, their Cultivation permit is $100. Annually. $100 annually to grow.

But, at least I'll know if I happen to get stopped for a driving infraction, which I do not engage in, and I have a few OZs I'll at least have that end legally covered in the state.

A little piece of mind. I hate jail food! Get lots of rest, though!

So, there's that

,
WHAB

[Butcher Bob]

I suspect they also erected the trusses, I do not know that for sure but looking at them they are not engineered trusses, that much I'm sure of.

Do you care to illustrate what you would do with the dimensions I provided?

Also, I had considered removing that center board (peak support) lumber until reading your, Oldjoints and ButcherBob comments!

But, after reading the comments I do think it is possible IF engineered correctly.

I would agree that they do not look engineered....but they would still act as a truss, even if not optimized for best efficiency.

I know enough to identify the concern, but I'm not qualified to design an alternate truss. I too initially thought of a box design like you've come up with...I've seen plenty of systems that use it. However I was unsure in your situation with the vertical ridge supports. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not sure how to go aboot doing it.

Personally, I'd want the whole space open. And because rafter span tables are much easier to figure out than truss design, I'd probably sister the correct size to the existing rafters, along with new ones in between, so that all interior supports could be eliminated. But that would be a lot of work, and a sizable chunk of money.

You might be able to find a truss company online that has diagrams of options and sizing...then just copy what they do.

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

Got'r done! *"Thank you ever so much, SIL!*

***I know you're all desirous of having a SIL as perfect as this one, mine! ***

Kidding aside, she's awesome! We team up on tasks. All I have to hear is "I need (or similar terms)..." and I'm up on my feet ready to go.

The worst part was getting the Modified 2 Stage Delta 50-850 1.5HP, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Dust Collector out of the shed and into the 1924 Brick Schoolhouse. The plan is to mount it up near the handrail of the loft, by myself. Right around the corner where those tall 2x4Basics shelves are, near the microwave.

The before, the after...in 2 parts...

First overview of the space (and a bit of clutter. my clutter ) you are seeing...

From the vestibule (4 foot wide pocket door)...panning right as I walk West into the space, then a 90°...

*above is my laundry bag from Boot Camp...(a long time ago) ... I just pulled it out of storage. * OORAH!, Motherfucker...OORAH!

From the Modified Ship's Ladder...

The cabinet I referred to in a previous post...an antique shop cabinet. You can see I taped it up. That was on the other end, at the storage unit. I knew I laid it down on its back. I knew it was getting wet from the rain that occurred when I parked the trailer here, the too cold weather for me to get out there, then about an inch of snow. The tarp was iced up pretty well. The back of the cabinet was already de-laminated before it went on the trailer. This experience has worsened it. More serious rain tomorrow...it had to come off the trailer. Done!...

Still, an amazing shop cabinet, even de-lamed and missing a drawer.

My SIL called dibs on it when I cease to exist in this world...It's hers.

She's a beaut, ain't she?!?! (the cabinet, I would *never think of my SIL in that way ).

Continued...


Add Edit: *never Doh!!!

,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

...continued.

Part duex (Fuch the French! )

The before...

In the back right of the trailer is one of a full set of customized (modified attach points, strap steel welded in place) Eddie Bauer seats. They're temporary seats for the 1962 Willys Wagon. I have the original seats and frames in storage. They're in the pictures, I failed to mention them. They were very nice when I put them in the back of one of my Willys Wagon donor vehicles in my BIL's boneyard a few years ago (my actual brother got them at auction, didn't want them and gave them to me). I saw some potential problem areas while moving them around - have not taken a good look at them.

The first thing off the trailer was the shop cabinet, of course (you can see it standing up in the back of this image - I HAD TO get it off its back (I knew I was potentially harming it and it didn't sit well with me)...man, I like that thing. Next was the second most important item off the trailer and the reason we're all here...

Shop Grow 0008 01292021.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 1172 times

Then, like magic! The after...

The time and weather when we got done. Nice Winter day to be out of doors getting some things done...

More of the after...

From the vestibule panning right, then stepping in and panning right.

Shop Grow 0013 01292021.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 1172 times

Shop Grow 0014 01292021.jpg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 1172 times

Almost nothing went in the shed. Almost everything that was on the trailer came into the 1924 Schoolhouse - + the the Modified 2 Stage Delta 50-850 1.5HP, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Dust Collection System.

You can see how waterlogged the boxes are. The first thing is to rebox them (good thing I 'might' have one or two available ), then hanging the Modified 2 Stage Delta 50-850 1.5HP, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Dust Collection System, then connect it's remote control power supply, then the connection of hose and fitting then fire it up I haven't hear if run in more than 18 months

Good thing that amazing Cloning Machine isn't subject to water damage much (except for certain conditions. And, again, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU...

***I have tentatively scheduled a trip to retrieve my machines - after the 1st (depending on financing - I think I have it handled) ***


,
WHAB

[WhiteHotAfterburner]

I suspect they also erected the trusses, I do not know that for sure but looking at them they are not engineered trusses, that much I'm sure of.

Do you care to illustrate what you would do with the dimensions I provided?

Also, I had considered removing that center board (peak support) lumber until reading your, Oldjoints and ButcherBob comments!

But, after reading the comments I do think it is possible IF engineered correctly.

I would agree that they do not look engineered....but they would still act as a truss, even if not optimized for best efficiency.

I know enough to identify the concern, but I'm not qualified to design an alternate truss. I too initially thought of a box design like you've come up with...I've seen plenty of systems that use it. However I was unsure in your situation with the vertical ridge supports. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not sure how to go aboot doing it.

Personally, I'd want the whole space open. And because rafter span tables are much easier to figure out than truss design, I'd probably sister the correct size to the existing rafters, along with new ones in between, so that all interior supports could be eliminated. But that would be a lot of work, and a sizable chunk of money.

You might be able to find a truss company online that has diagrams of options and sizing...then just copy what they do.

Thank you, again, for your input, my friend!

Yes, when I first got here I heard from my niece that the place was approved for a second story, the base structure could support it. That's all I know about the approval. No details. Does that mean take the top off and build walls up on the top of the double stacked brick wall? Does that mean re-engineering the trusses to create a second story under the existing top. Does that mean erecting a Timber Frame Endoskeleton and tie into the re-engineered trusses (I have seriously considered that one. I think it would look amazing and unique!)? No one could tell me. My niece couldn't provide me with contact information, not even the fellow's name .

The only thing I think could possibly be added to enhance it strength is in blue...but, even I think that is overkill. My only consideration at this point is what method of gusset do I incorporate; the nail plate gussets or plywood gussets. I prefer plywood gussets but I realize with increased costs of construction materials nail plates may be the best, cost effective method in which to accomplish the desired reinforced results.

Thanks again, brother. Please chime in at any point. Your opinion is valued. Any of you. Your voice is valued.


,
WHAB